What do you think of the Civ VI great people?

[ShinigamiKenji]

My playstyle is to spam Commercial Hubs in every city, which is pretty much as far as "focusing Great Merchants" goes. I think that is something I do for every victory condition.

I agree though that that late in the game it's probably going to amount to maybe 1-2 visiting tourists per district, but that can help push your victory a few turns earlier. Which isn't always something you can do via other means by that point. And in the unlikely event that you are somehow behind in Tourism, it will make a big difference over time.

By focusing on Great Merchants, I meant also going for Commercial Hubs projects and patronizing them. Like we do with Sagan and Kwolek when going for a Scientific Victory.

Well, Cultural Victory might be a backup plan too (maybe after having your religion wiped out when going for a Religious Victory?), I hadn't thought of that.

 

[Tacgnol]

Haven't read the thread yet so I'm not sure what people have said.

Overall I like the system, it is pretty great, works better than IV or V IMO, obviously there are some balancing issues such as Adam Smith but that's to be expected with a still relatively new game. But there are two main things I would change.

One, as people have pointed out some GPs especially late game GAs are relatively useless. Why not solve this problem by bringing back one of the pretty good features from older civs that's gone now, Golden Ages? Do it like Civ IV, 1 GP of any type can start your first GA, after that you need 2 GPs of different types. Gives you something to do with useless late game artists/scientists, adds an extra decision with the less awesome ones of do I want to use the ability or save for a golden age?

Two, and this really just seems like an oversight that jumped out at me the first time I played, why are Great Prophets not in the game at all besides founding a religion??? There just seems like 0 reason for this given the rest of the system, it would make so much more sense to just have the first 6 (or whatever) Great Prophets found a religion, and after that they continue to exist and provide bonuses. You could have ancient ones that evangelize beliefs, ones that add bonuses to your Holy Site buildings, build a free shrine/temple, spawn missionaries/apostles/inquisitors, or add a buff to your missionaries. Or just don't bother with any flavor at all and have them just act as a super-apostle with 5 or 6 spreads and 120 religious combat strength, anything is better than just not having them in the game, period. It makes the Holy Site buildings even more useless outside of a Faith game by taking away their GPP, and adding minor boosts to religion through prophets would help it contribute to the rest of the game. And if you have nothing to do with one or spawn one with no religion, just start a Golden Age lol.

I can see not wanting prophets in the late game but just cap them off at 1-2 per era post industrial or shut them off completely at that point, the game is already well equipped to handle running through the GP pool. There's just no reason to have no prophets after 2000BC, the feature is already in the game it's just been left out or overlooked.

 

[UWHabs]

Haven't read the thread yet so I'm not sure what people have said.

Overall I like the system, it is pretty great, works better than IV or V IMO, obviously there are some balancing issues such as Adam Smith but that's to be expected with a still relatively new game. But there are two main things I would change.

One, as people have pointed out some GPs especially late game GAs are relatively useless. Why not solve this problem by bringing back one of the pretty good features from older civs that's gone now, Golden Ages? Do it like Civ IV, 1 GP of any type can start your first GA, after that you need 2 GPs of different types. Gives you something to do with useless late game artists/scientists, adds an extra decision with the less awesome ones of do I want to use the ability or save for a golden age?

Two, and this really just seems like an oversight that jumped out at me the first time I played, why are Great Prophets not in the game at all besides founding a religion??? There just seems like 0 reason for this given the rest of the system, it would make so much more sense to just have the first 6 (or whatever) Great Prophets found a religion, and after that they continue to exist and provide bonuses. You could have ancient ones that evangelize beliefs, ones that add bonuses to your Holy Site buildings, build a free shrine/temple, spawn missionaries/apostles/inquisitors, or add a buff to your missionaries. Or just don't bother with any flavor at all and have them just act as a super-apostle with 5 or 6 spreads and 120 religious combat strength, anything is better than just not having them in the game, period. It makes the Holy Site buildings even more useless outside of a Faith game by taking away their GPP, and adding minor boosts to religion through prophets would help it contribute to the rest of the game. And if you have nothing to do with one or spawn one with no religion, just start a Golden Age lol.

I can see not wanting prophets in the late game but just cap them off at 1-2 per era post industrial or shut them off completely at that point, the game is already well equipped to handle running through the GP pool. There's just no reason to have no prophets after 2000BC, the feature is already in the game it's just been left out or overlooked.

I also ran into an interesting situation in one of my games. Norway got one of the great prophets, but I ended up capturing their city with a holy site the next turn, and then proceeded to wipe them out. So since they already got one prophet, there was one less religion in the game the entire time. I know it's possible to wipe out a religion otherwise, but still feels weird to not even start it.

I think they wanted to steer clear of certain prophets being more "powerful" than others, but even if they just kept all the later prophets with a fixed bonus - say, they all have 130 religious strength, have 5 charges for spreading, and maybe all have the "Martyr" promotion, that would be nice. And yeah, even if you had them run out by the industrial era or so, that wouldn't be a big deal.

And definitely agree on giving some secondary function to the artist types. I also think they try to make the art museums too complicated - I would say that every artist should produce a single great work (maybe 2 if you really want), they should reduce the number of "categories" (seriously, does the Louvre get less theming because the Mona Lisa is a Portrait and other pieces in there are landscapes?) and theming should just be a simple "all 3 pieces of the same era, or all 3 of the same type". Most of the time now, I just completely ignore art, because it's a lot easier to just worry about archaeology than to fight over certain art pieces. Honestly, I don't think I've actually recruited a great artist in at least 2-3 games.

 

[ShinigamiKenji]

Maybe England should have some uses for them, given there's a limited number of artifacts around and their Archaeological Museums hold double the number of artifacts. Or maybe Kongo or Russia.

 

[Kyro]

Brilliant post, I just have to ask:

How good are these? I normally look at them and thin "meh" ... I mean, sure, they will provide some tourism, but normally not more than +50, at best +100 or so in normal games. Does that make a huge difference very late in then game?

They should come after computers which means you are looking at around +20 Tourism from each Industrial Zone and Campus. Industrial zones should be in all your Cities so if you have 10 Cities at least (Which you should) you're looking at +200 Tourism per turn from just ONE great person. If you have campuses in at least 5 Cities on top of that by the late game (Which you should) you're looking at +300 or more.

The argument that they are insignificant because they come late in the game is invalid because Tourism only really kicks in late in the Game chiefly because of the +100% Outputs from Computers and Policy Slots. (Unless you Warmongered all the way and conquered many cities, which then makes this topic completely redundant because that is technically the most efficient strategy and anything else is just icing off the cake. Or if your opponents were somehow complete cultural pushovers which is highly unlikely if you played against Kongo/Russia on Deity.) Any comparitive headstart from Great Artists is very insignficant in the face of late game tourism on steroids. Let's say you earned a couple of Great Artists and their works for 200 turns before the advent of computers and you were not able to theme them yet because that's the norm. That is: 3 (Tourism) x 6(Quantity of Art) x 200 turns = 3600 Total Raw Tourism generated before late game. With those 2 Great Merchants alone you could have exceeded in around 10 Turns what those Great Artists got you in 200 Turns because of Tourism Modifiers only available in the late game.

 

[Victoria]

Maybe England should have some uses for them, given there's a limited number of artifacts around and their Archaeological Museums hold double the number of artifacts. Or maybe Kongo or Russia.

Do not you worry about poor England...In all my games I have never run out of artifacts and shipwrecks... and the auto theme bonus means I just hoover them all up and all museums are themed.
The AI just does not go for artifacts so they are pretty much all yours.
If not playing England it can be hard to find someone to swap them with.

When I get great artists I just use them as scouts or to stop barbs spawning

As an aside I just am finishing an emporer Cultural victory game and built only one theatre...1400 tourism points... 2 wonders, 2 great scientists and that was it.

 

[Kyro]

Reaching 1.4k Tourism without great works is precisely why I say Cultural Great People are insignificant in general.

I'm curious how many Seaside Resorts and National Parks you had to build to get that amount. I'm assuming you built Cristo Ridentor? Did you earn the District Tourism Great Merchants?

 

[Victoria]

I forgot about the great Admirals... I got quite a few of those
Here is the .sav if really interested... about 50 seaside resorts, no great merchants for tourism, won berfore that and 0 national parks. Eiffel is more imprtant than cristo but you do really need both. Cristo is the harder to get. Eiffel gives 3-4 times as many possible resorts
... I failed to get this victory 3 times on deity so tried on emporer and first game had a perfect map layout and an aztec that did not grow

In general I agree, they are insignificant but some great scientists and merchants and engineers do help.
The generals and admirals can give you that OP "stack"

Near the end the aztcs declared on me as expected....just took one of their cities and then gave it back for peace. Only fight of the game.

 

[Kyro]

Oh Right Eiffel Tower. The magic tourism duo with Cristo...or trio if you include Mont St. Michel. I usually get all 3 on Emperor and it guarantees victory.

I average 2k plus tourism late game without many coastal city tiles for resorts so I was wondering how much I was losing out. Apparently too much....not easy to find good spots near the sea that are productive as well.

 

[ShinigamiKenji]

Wow, that's really amazing. Radio and Computers are about on the same side of the tech tree, but Steel is right in the middle. I'd guess a Resort-based strategy for a CV might be called a Scientific CV.

I thought of that after the GotM 06. I almost exhausted Antiquity Sites and Shipwrecks on that map, but I won before Eiffel Tower anyway. In hindsight, I maybe overlooked Science and Resorts there.

 

[Kyro]

Wow, that's really amazing. Radio and Computers are about on the same side of the tech tree, but Steel is right in the middle. I'd guess a Resort-based strategy for a CV might be called a Scientific CV.

I thought of that after the GotM 06. I almost exhausted Antiquity Sites and Shipwrecks on that map, but I won before Eiffel Tower anyway. In hindsight, I maybe overlooked Science and Resorts there.

If a Science Based approach to Cultural Victory can have such effectiveness there really is no point in going for it from a Cutural approach. That's just bad design.

Oh wait a Warpath to Cultural Victory already beats both methods combined easily.

On a separate note I would like to add another point concerning Great People. That is the fact that you are forced to make a gamble when passing on great people. As discussed above having to take a huge risk for passing a great person forces Players into a lose - lose situation should the Great Person they're waiting for just doesn't spawn. That to me is just terrible design. This is also related to eras wiping out great people.

Why should factors beyond a player's control have so much bearing on outcomes?

 

[ShinigamiKenji]

If a Science Based approach to Cultural Victory can have such effectiveness there really is no point in going for it from a Cutural approach. That's just bad design.

Oh wait a Warpath to Cultural Victory already beats both methods combined easily.

On a separate note I would like to add another point concerning Great People. That is the fact that you are forced to make a gamble when passing on great people. As discussed above having to take a huge risk for passing a great person forces Players into a lose - lose situation should the Great Person they're waiting for just doesn't spawn. That to me is just terrible design. This is also related to eras wiping out great people.

Why should factors beyond a player's control have so much bearing on outcomes?

A cultural approach is the Artifact strategy, and a Religious approach would be using relics. It seems fairly balanced (obviously, aside Domination Cultural). But we derail again.

I strongly defend my idea of having a pool of 5 GP per era, from which 3 are chosen at the discretion of the recruiter at the moment. But I definitely like the flavor of every one being unique (aside GWAMs, but those wouldn't need to be if they were more relevant to a Cultural Victory).

 

[Kyro]

I would abolish skipping great people because of eras entirely because it's just terrible and I think your suggestion is a perfect solution. First Come first serve basis, no luck, pure brain.

On top of that they have to buff the useless Great People so we don't get the "meh" impression when earning them. They're Great People for Heaven's sake.

 

[Victoria]

from which 3 are chosen at the discretion of the recruiter at the moment.

... you mean you could choose if you wanted Newton or Einstein?. Have you got an early scientist with excellent genetic manipulation skills?
Luck, every good game should have its measure of bad luck as well as good IMO. You gotta have the lows to get the highs.

What about the scientist that provides science equal to religious output for a site?... great if you have a religion... not so hot if not. Love the concept, hate getting him... perfect.

 

[Kyro]

... you mean you could choose if you wanted Newton or Einstein?. Have you got an early scientist with excellent genetic manipulation skills?
Luck, every good game should have its measure of bad luck as well as good IMO. You gotta have the lows to get the highs.

That's the thing for Elements with such significant impact on the game Luck should be kept at an absolute minimum or else there is no meaning to strategy, effort or difficulty.

Newton or Einstein shouldn't be more coveted than other Great Scientists they should all be Great just different.

 

[ShinigamiKenji]

... you mean you could choose if you wanted Newton or Einstein?. Have you got an early scientist with excellent genetic manipulation skills?
Luck, every good game should have its measure of bad luck as well as good IMO. You gotta have the lows to get the highs.

What about the scientist that provides science equal to religious output for a site?... great if you have a religion... not so hot if not. Love the concept, hate getting him... perfect.

Newton and Einstein are on different eras, so you could have both in this game. I was saying that you could, for example, choose between Mary Leakey, Janaki Anmal, Erwin Schrödinger or 2 other Scientists in the Atomic Era. But after 3 of them are recruited, the next ones will be from Information Era.

The extra ones should be focused on other things. For example, an Atomic Great Scientist that reveals Uranium (so more Domination-focused) or another one that makes Holy Sites give science equal to faith adjacency (good if you're using Religion to back up Science, for example with Wats/Meeting Houses and Jesuit Education), to allow for more diverse playthroughs and unusual strategies.

(Not that the Holy Sites one would be good or make sense in the Atomic Era, but you get the idea)

 

[ArdentFire88]

I like all of the responses and input. You guys/gals have lots of great opinions on GP.

But now I have another question: Do you think they should bring back the Great Humanitarian of Civ Revolution (or some sort of food/population related great person), or was it best to leave a class like that out of the games?

I personally think they should add a food-population related great person, mainly because it would help boost city size and output, and also, we just don't have a great person for food, and that is one of the main yields of the game.

 

[Kyro]

I like all of the responses and input. You guys/gals have lots of great opinions on GP.

But now I have another question: Do you think they should bring back the Great Humanitarian of Civ Revolution (or some sort of food/population related great person), or was it best to leave a class like that out of the games?

I personally think they should add a food-population related great person, mainly because it would help boost city size and output, and also, we just don't have a great person for food, and that is one of the main yields of the game.

Not that I don't want Great Humanitarians but those would allow Tall and Peaceful Plays to be possible and the Devs would be against it given all that they've done to prevent that playstyle from being viable.

It's the same reason why all Great Engineers except a few don't actually boost production outputs in any way. Can't have you getting too productive or else you won't have a reason to go to war~

 

[Wulfram G.T.]

Just overflew the last five pages. I will write my thoughts on great people. I think the GP system is really broken and the biggest flaw in civ 6 for the resons I will write.

- The pool is finite and AFAIK the same size no matter how many players there are on the map (correct me if wrong). That means if you play on a huge map with many AI's there will not be born any GP's after midgame. Since the first half of the game you will probably just try to keep up, when you are finally getting a world power, the are no GP's left.
- You get GP's by production (building districts and buildings), faith and gold. On higher difficulties the AI has a huge advantage to all the three, which means you probably play without any GP's at all. While for Science or Domination, GP's are just a "nice to have", for Tourism they are essential.
- Civ is supposed to be a strategy game. The decision of taking or skipping a GP is a strategic decision. Also, you should plan GP's ahead many turns. You cannot make that strategic decision because you do not know the next GP's that will appear.
- There are GP's that are just a small "nice to have" and other ones that are really powerful game changers.
- When you skip a GP and the other players are just badly behind, you have to wait really long that the next one is unlocked.

So, I would certainly make the pool infinite and either make them identical (like in civ 5) or all the GP's that will appear should be visible in order (unrealistic but allows strategic planning). Also, skipping a GP should allow you to unlock the next one.

 

[ShinigamiKenji]

Victoria showed in another post that you can get by using only Seaside Resorts, and in most of my Culture games the bulk of my tourism comes from artifacts.

Also, you forgot an important part if your plan revolves around GP: district projects. Since the later ones can get really expensive, those are of fundamental importance to win the GP race (especially considering that the AI rarely, if ever, invest in projects).