What do you think of this flow chart?

[futurehermit]

The worst part of my game is the early game (the second worst is post-liberalism, but I won't get into that here ).

So, I made this flow chart for myself. I wanted to know what people think of it and if it is useful then maybe others will enjoy it.

It's for Alex, but could apply to pretty much any leader.

Thanks!

Opening:

• Mining + Bronze


If copper:

• Wheel + Myst + Food (Anhusb/Farm/Hunt)
• Chop out a settler

If copper + close neighbour:

• Prepare to rush (6 axes for fringe, more for capital)
• SCOUT OPPONENT FOR METALS/HORSES!!!!
• Tech toward alpha via anhusb
• A BIT LATER FIRST GS FOR ACADEMY THEN PHIL
• Chop GL after peace (don’t delay war) in capital and run many specialists under caste system after CoL (tech it after lit); get herrule next (by trade if possible) to increase # of specialists

If copper + no close neighbour:

• Total 3 cities and prepare for Snaaty’s strat (see his thread), axes for barb defense
• Tech toward CoL and 6 cities and many specialists and liberalism then grens
• EARLY GS FOR ACADEMY THEN ONE FOR PHIL
• Chop GL in capital and run many specialists; her rule to increase # of specs

If no copper:

• Anhusb to reveal horses

If horses:

• Wheel + Myst + Food (Farm/Hunt)
• Chop out a settler

If horses + close neighbour:

• Prepare to rush (9 chariots for fringe, more for capital)
• SCOUT OPPONENT FOR METALS/HORSES!!!!
• Tech toward alpha
• A BIT LATER FIRST GS FOR ACADEMY THEN PHIL
• Chop GL after peace (don’t delay war) in capital and run many specialists under caste system after CoL (tech it after lit); get herrule next (by trade if possible) to increase # of specialists

If horses + no close neighbour:

• Total 3 cities and prepare for Snaaty’s strat, chariots for barb defense
• Tech toward CoL and 6 cities and many specialists and liberalism then grens
• EARLY GS FOR ACADEMY THEN ONE FOR PHIL
• Chop GL in capital and run many specialists; her rule to increase # of specs

If no horses:

• Archery

If no copper/horses + close neighbour:

• Construction: EARLY GS FOR MATH!!! THEN ONE FOR PHIL
• 3 total cities, archers for barb defense

If ivory:

• Attack with elephants and (mainly) catapults
• Tech alpha unless available for trade/suing
• If time, chop GL in high-food city and use herrule to increase specialists after CoL; if not, plan on using caste system + her rule to increase specialists asap

If no ivory:

• Attack with archers and (mainly) catapults
• Tech alpha unless available for trade/suing
• If time, chop GL in high-food city and use herrule to increase specialists after CoL; if not, plan on using caste system + her rule to increase specialists asap

If no copper/horses + no close neighbour:

• Prepare for Snaaty’s strat, archers for barb defense
• Tech toward CoL and 6 cities and many specialists and liberalism then grens
• EARLY GS FOR ACADEMY THEN ONE FOR PHIL
• Chop GL in capital and use herrule to increase specialists

GS USAGE AFTER PHIL

1. GM: For upgrade units to maces (UNLESS I WENT CONSTRUCTION PATH OR ATTACKED WITH CHARIOTS!!! If I went construction path or attacked with chariots then instead do another GS for academy or other tech)
2. GS: Machinery (after Metcast, compass, calendar)
3. GS: Paper
4. GS: Education
5. GS: Liberalism—take Printing press
6. GM: For upgrade units to grenadiers
7. GS: Chemistry

Any thoughts appreciated

 

[cabert]

I don't see currency in you plan.
I don't see trade/diplomacy in your plan.

One more thing : upgrading units to maces is wrong sometimes. Y
ou need those old units for HR happiness.
You need the money for research funding.
Better build fresh, well promoted units(with a settled GG, vassalage or theocracy + barracks, you're level 3 out of the gate) from the HE city.

It's different for upgrading to grenadiers, because the CR3 grenadiers are really good and cannot be built.

 

[futurehermit]

I noticed Peter upgrade units to maces in his emperor domination victory thread and it seemed very effective. I would only do this if I have a number of cr2-3 axes or swords to upgrade.

The plan only involves the initial approach, that's why you don't see currency and diplomacy. Diplomacy is standard approach (have some friends and targets; all friends initially if peaceful preferably; triangle approach if possible). Currency is obviously a good, albeit pricy, tech. I normally get it via trade while going up the liberalism route...It is good, but expensive for a deviation and the AI seems to prize it and trade it fairly soon (it's not a military tech...)

I'm not as concerned about research funding because playing SE, get most research from specialists anyways...

 

[cabert]

If you lightbulb philo, do you run pacifism?
You need to include religion spreading somewhere, then.
And currency is indeed tradeable, but highly important.

I disagree about the SE making research funding unnecessary.
If you have money in the pocket, you can have more cities running more scientists and lose money at 0%

 

[futurehermit]

I didn't say unnecessary, I said I'm not *as* concerned As acidsatyr once said to me in a pm: "It is always possible to get your money from somewhere"

I find that I use the Taoist missionary in my highest-specialist city and then it slowly spreads to the rest of my cities. If necessary, I will build a monastery for a few more missionaries (e.g., if another religion has spread to a city then Taoism will not spread there and will need a missionary).

 

[Dirk1302]

Nice chart have to read more closely to comment further, opening is not so automatic for me:

1. If i'm coastal with seafood i start fishing
2. if i have animals in the neighbourhood i start AH especially if i have agriculture
3. If i'm playing inca i try for hinduism (since there is no barb threat)
otherwise i start start mining, bronzeworking

 

[futurehermit]

Ok, I followed this last night. I had a very solid axerush against Issy. She built toward me. I built one city to claim copper then took 2 of her cities that were fairly close to me and razed another leaving her with her capital and a marginal city. She was crippled.

However, I did not beeline CoL hard enough (went alpha-lit-drama [cheaper access to phil lightbulb + prep for GT is what I thought...]) and it cost me.

So, I would like to say that beelining CoL is very important (courthouses, caste system, unlocks CS), probably more important than GL when being aggressive.

The problem is that on emperor the AI doesn't tech as fast as immortal/deity and therefore cannot sue for CoL during first war and also not as many trading opportunities (no early currency for example) and stuff like that. So, there is a more pressing need to get some self researching done.

 

[Dirk1302]

I've heard a lot of researching COL early also by others on this site. It's an important tech mainly because it unlocks civi service. I never understood the need to build courthouses that early, typically you have 4-6 cities at the time COL comes through, i did a test with 6 cities size 4-8 in game that i had no further interest in anymore, i added 6 courthouses in worldbuilder, gain was 10 gpt/turn. This is not much since i can build a 12 units stack for these hammers. If you can also build forbidden palace it gets better but you have to have 8 cities on huge map in that case.

So i doubt if building courthouses at that stage is very useful. Caste system is useful but i'm mainly using slavery at this time.

If one of your trade partners has COL it's better to research drama, LB phil and backtrade for COL and currency i think, Drama means money and theaters are useful and cheap.

 

[cabert]

10 gpt/turn is a lot
ANd at what level did you test it?
The maintenance costs boom at higher levels.

 

[Dirk1302]

It was an emperor game. I don't think 10 gpt/turn is a lot.I get easily 300-500 gold for techs as literature, drama etc...on a standard map, much more on huge maps. I can usually get to 5-10 gpt/turn only by trading marble away after GL. I much prefer having a stack of 12 non obsolete units at any given moment than 10 gpt/turn. Also profits of war exceed 10 gpt/turn by far.

In the test game i added the courthouses sometime after CS, research decifit
went from -50 to -40at 100 % research). If i had added them just after COL i think the return would have been even less than 10gpt/turn

Of course there comes a time when courthouses are very effective, when you have 10+ cities and you build forbidden palace than you save 50+ gpt/turn.
But at the time COL is researched it's too early IMO. It woud be interesting to know how much money is saved exactly by courthouses in different situations (different number, distance and size of cities)

 

[cabert]

It was an emperor game. I don't think 10 gpt/turn is a lot.I get easily 300-500 gold for techs as literature, drama etc...on a standard map, much more on huge maps. I can usually get to 5-10 gpt/turn only by trading marble away after GL. I much prefer having a stack of 12 non obsolete units at any given moment than 10 gpt/turn. Also profits of war exceed 10 gpt/turn by far.

In the test game i added the courthouses sometime after CS, research decifit
went from -50 to -40at 100 % research). If i had added them just after COL i think the return would have been even less than 10gpt/turn

Of course there comes a time when courthouses are very effective, when you have 10+ cities and you build forbidden palace than you save 50+ gpt/turn.
But at the time COL is researched it's too early IMO. It woud be interesting to know how much money is saved exactly by courthouses in different situations (different number, distance and size of cities)

I think your a bit mistaken :
the goal of those courthouses is to pay for future expansion.
How?
"Number of cities" maintenance is going to boom if you got to war and conquer some cities. So the courthouses will see their efficiency boom too.

I must say I'd rather have 2/3 markets than 4/6 courthouses .
But FH's signature is telling you why he thinks courthouses are so good :
"Land is power"

 

[Dirk1302]

You've got a point there, wars do pay for themselves but reduced maintanance from courthouses adds gravy. And during the wars there is no
time to build/whip them.

Still isn't it better to whip the courthouses at the time that expansion is over and they do become critical? This will be later in the game when my cities are considerably bigger and whipping them is easier.

Whipping them at time of COL is a huge strain on my cities and i generally find building units is just more important at that time.

I agree with you about markets in big cities,Bringing money, rather useful specialists and happiness they're great.

 

[futurehermit]

Courthouses are huge in my games. I don't know what emperor games you're playing, but the AI usually doesn't even have currency around the time that I need money now.

Like are we talking getting 300-500 gp for lit around 200BC? Cuz that's when I talking about needing money. My first war is done, I have 4-6 total cities, some of which are a bit of a stretch from my capital and are costing me around 4gpt early in maintenance and that will go up. Cutting that in 1/2 as early as possible seems critical.

In the game I mentioned after war against lizzy my city maintenance costs were about 75% of my expenses and were putting a hurt on my economy. Cutting that amount in 1/2 asap would've been a huge boon on my economy.

Plus at that time I needed to turn builder for a bit so I didn't need to use those hammers on more units...

Markets are good, but again, I don't usually have currency so early.

Courthouses are my first build in every captured city and yes I whip them if possible.

And when I play FE/SE, markets are not as beneficial as courthouses...although the specialists from markets do allow me to stay in slavery longer and run 2 scientists and 2 merchants...

I guess I'm just talking about an earlier phase of the game than maybe you are. In my game against Issy, I attacked her prior to 500BC and the war was over around 500BC, maybe shortly after. I had 4 total cities and had razed one of her cities after capturing 2. One of her cities was near enough to my capital that it was where you would normally put a city near a capital (1 bfc away). But the other one was a bit of a stretch (2 bfcs away). It was close enough that I felt justified keeping it (I razed the one that was 3 bfcs away), but not so close that it wasn't hurting me a bit economically. If I had been able to get a courthouse in there asap I would've been better off.

I want to time the arrival of CoL around the time my first war is over from now on...(when running FE/SE CoL is also extremely important when turning builder after first war...running many specialists)

 

[cabert]

Courthouses are huge in my games. I don't know what emperor games you're playing, but the AI usually doesn't even have currency around the time that I need money now.

Like are we talking getting 300-500 gp for lit around 200BC? Cuz that's when I talking about needing money. My first war is done, I have 4-6 total cities, some of which are a bit of a stretch from my capital and are costing me around 4gpt early in maintenance and that will go up. Cutting that in 1/2 as early as possible seems critical.

In the game I mentioned after war against lizzy my city maintenance costs were about 75% of my expenses and were putting a hurt on my economy. Cutting that amount in 1/2 asap would've been a huge boon on my economy.

Plus at that time I needed to turn builder for a bit so I didn't need to use those hammers on more units...

Markets are good, but again, I don't usually have currency so early.

Courthouses are my first build in every captured city and yes I whip them if possible.

And when I play FE/SE, markets are not as beneficial as courthouses...although the specialists from markets do allow me to stay in slavery longer and run 2 scientists and 2 merchants...

I guess I'm just talking about an earlier phase of the game than maybe you are. In my game against Issy, I attacked her prior to 500BC and the war was over around 500BC, maybe shortly after. I had 4 total cities and had razed one of her cities after capturing 2. One of her cities was near enough to my capital that it was where you would normally put a city near a capital (1 bfc away). But the other one was a bit of a stretch (2 bfcs away). It was close enough that I felt justified keeping it (I razed the one that was 3 bfcs away), but not so close that it wasn't hurting me a bit economically. If I had been able to get a courthouse in there asap I would've been better off.

I want to time the arrival of CoL around the time my first war is over from now on...(when running FE/SE CoL is also extremely important when turning builder after first war...running many specialists)

you need more cottages

 

[futurehermit]

i've been working them in a bit more and admit I see their utility.

I think FE/SE excels the most at immortal/deity. I just feel like the AI doesn't tech as fast as I would like for FE/SE on emperor (now that my understanding of SE has moved from running specialists for tech to lightbulbing and trading).

So, yeah, I think a mixed econ is better at this level.

I still think though that courthouses are important early. I mean what's wrong with cutting your empire-wide maintenance costs in half?

 

[cabert]

I still think though that courthouses are important early. I mean what's wrong with cutting your empire-wide maintenance costs in half?

it costs hammers and doesn't pay for troops
I choose currency over CoL every time because the extra trade routes are free and immediate (with open borders, for a value similar to what you get from courthouses !) + ability to trade for gold + markets in core commerce cities.
Of course, if you want to run caste system, it's very different, but I almost never do.

 

[futurehermit]

^^^yes, i pretty much want to be running caste system and don't have "core commerce cities". not to mention the fact that CoL is prereq for CS (bureaucracy 1/2 of maces). and in a FE you just whip and regrow (markets also cost hammers)

 

[Dirk1302]

Courthouses are huge in my games. I don't know what emperor games you're playing, but the AI usually doesn't even have currency around the time that I need money now.

If i made an early rush ending up with 6 cities while AI hasn't currency yet i just build GL and NE in capital, go researching Drama or construction at a lazy pace, wait for philosophy and trade it for currency and COL once the AI has these techs. So i'm not that interested in money or a high research rate at that particular point in the game.Once i pick up COL, currency and money this way it's full speed ahead at to CS lightbulbing philo and education after researching CS.

Lately i've been experimenting with cottages in capital, farm everywhere else.
With a financial civ you get quite a lot of commerce from cottages near river.
Also Pete's suggestion taking monarchy from oracle allowing for big cities early helps a lot but it muddles the GS path to liberalism.

 

[futurehermit]

Yes, I don't build the oracle when farming GSs. Always seem to get too many prophets...

I suppose I could delay CoL, but what year are you getting liberalism? I'm shooting for around 600-800AD...

 

[CliftonBazaar]

The only thing missing from your flowchart is when to simply give up and start again. I have played on maps where I tinnk 'Should I continue or simply start again?'.
There are only so many hours in the day and if the average game takes a person 5 hours, then after 2 hours you need to ask yourself 'am I willing to spend another 3 hours on this game?'

Especially on the higher levels, you simply know that you will be defeated soon if Monty is your neighbor and you no copper or iron.

James