What don't you like about Clan of Embers?

[Dark Russell]

I am currently making a civ as an offshoot for the Clan of Embers to change things I don't like about them (like the scorched earth trait which I plan on replacing with the need to build a special building in order to enable settlers). I was wondering, for those who have played the Clan, what is it you don't like about them? The reason I ask is that if I want to post the new civ here as a mod, I want to make sure I try to follow the FfH team's guidelines of uniqueness (or as close as I can get).

Being at peace with the barbs is a huge advantage on larger maps at longer play speeds (I prefer huge maps on marathon) so I am trying to find a way to slow down the expansion rate in the beginning of the game. It makes capturing barb cities a bit more important for expansion (hence the loss of scorched earth trait - civilized barbs should take what they own).

Any thoughts?

 

[marioflag]

I have found them a bit weaker than other civs, and their strenght decreases as much as you play on harder difficulty.
Except for it i think that Clan of Embers is one of the best designed civs, their traits, the gameplay mechanic you have to follow playing them is perfect for what they are supposed to be: powerful Barbarians.
I think that removing Scorched Earth or Barbarian would just remove the flavour they have.Devs have found IMO the best solutions to add flavour to this civ and forcing to play it in a specific way.

 

[mindlar]

The Clan of Embers (like other barbarian civs) is best played fast out of the gate. Their alliance with the barbarians is what makes them potent in the early game, but is a drawback as the game progresses due to the 10% science penalty.

To offset their scorched earth trait, they get the advantage of being able to expand very quickly. Like marioflag, I agree that they are fine as is... but you can mod things as you want.

Personally I'm not a fan of scorched earth, but can live with it. What really bothers me about them is that their scouts only have 1 move.

 

[Bringa]

What I don't like about the Clan of Embers is that they don't have Giant Mammoths that shoot lasers out of their eyes.

 

[loki1232]

That's a doviello unit, silly.

Orc's don't ride mammoths, the beastmen do.

 

[trae]

i dont understand the scorched earth trait... the real barbs dont even raze every city they capture, why should the civilized ones have to?

i wonder if a new trait could be made that would work out better. i dont know anything about modding so i have no idea how one would go about changing or adding traits. but how about an 'erratic' trait, as a negative trait; the result of which is that they cannot directly choose their tech path. like alpha centauri used to play, only have it set to automatically weight their tech towards military techs. this would still have them play as aggressive, bloodthirsty barbarians barely civilized enough to be called such... they would have to trade (and be on good enough terms with) other civs if they wanted to do much other then build military.

i can understand why their scouts only have one movement; the civ's strength is in early expansion, but too much would overbalance them. maybe the scouts could start with that promotion that gives them extra movement in trees as a compromise?

 

[Kael]

Its all balance. The Clan has undercosted units and the ability to expand without fear (or even with the help of) the barbarians. The are scroched earth because if they got to spread and take cities with their cheap numerous units they would be overpowered.

So they have to destroy cities. I do like the latest change to undercost their settlers to make up for it, but the clan can never expend by taking over their opponents lands. Instead they have to return it to the wild, and then reclaim it themselves.

Incidently the Doviello are balanced on the opposite site, to keep them from being to efficient out of the gate (since they arent hindered by the bardbs) their units are overcosted. Meaning they produce more slowly and cant overwhelm as easily.

 

[coko]

I did find I could overwhelm my opponents by getting about 9 units outside their capital before they've gotten a second settler out and stopping growth while i attacked the other settlement!

Actually a tactic I love is waiting for Orthus because he is so beefy against a lot of them, especially if I've stopped them expanding away, because even if he dies I'll jump in next turn to get it back!

 

[Dark Russell]

I did find I could overwhelm my opponents by getting about 9 units outside their capital before they've gotten a second settler out and stopping growth while i attacked the other settlement!

Actually a tactic I love is waiting for Orthus because he is so beefy against a lot of them, especially if I've stopped them expanding away, because even if he dies I'll jump in next turn to get it back!

Indeed. I like to put my capital on a plains hill right next to a forested plains hill. With the 5 hammers at the start it means I can produce a spearman every 8 turns or a scout every 6 (on marathon speed). If I am next to any other civ, they are dead (or were until I gave the AI 10 defencive units to start). With the massive scout output, on huge maps almost all the huts are mine which means I usually tech myself to war with the barbs before Orthus arrives on the scene. That, coupled with the scouts ability to upgrade to Warg Riders by attacking wolves, means that the Clan can be really strong off the top.

Its all balance. The Clan has undercosted units and the ability to expand without fear (or even with the help of) the barbarians. The are scroched earth because if they got to spread and take cities with their cheap numerous units they would be overpowered.

I understand the balance issue and that is why I don't want to touch the Clan of Embers, but just make an offshoot civ to make it "more enjoyable" to play the orcs. There has to be a reason that they are the most disliked civ on the most recent poll. That being said, I also want to make sure the balance is kept with whatever I do (although I would prefer to make it even more difficult for the "civilized barbarians" to become "civilized").

 

[Alasyre]

i wonder if a new trait could be made that would work out better. i dont know anything about modding so i have no idea how one would go about changing or adding traits. but how about an 'erratic' trait, as a negative trait; the result of which is that they cannot directly choose their tech path. like alpha centauri used to play, only have it set to automatically weight their tech towards military techs. this would still have them play as aggressive, bloodthirsty barbarians barely civilized enough to be called such... they would have to trade (and be on good enough terms with) other civs if they wanted to do much other then build military.

I like this. If it's possible, it would be interesting if the Clan were given a chance to steal a random non-military technology known to their enemy but not them whenever they raze a city. This way, they're not horribly hindered. Maybe an additional penalty to their research rate to compensate for the occasional free tecnology would be in order. But I don't play the Clan much, so I have no idea how their would affect game balance.

 

[Rod]

hello,

at first I want to point out that I really like the Clan of Embers, they have stunning looking units that are very nicely undercosted, they have nice gimmicks like those goblins whom you want to find the next wolf as soon as anyhow possible and they are simply able to shake the world entirely .. razing razing razing..

But I do kind of like the idea about the tech transfer of alasyre.

Maybe you simply copy this from the Mongol scenario. Every civ in FFH that got destroyed by the Clan will provide them a unique tech. This should be early techs, so that this advantage is running out during the mid game (except for Infernal and Basium who should give nice late game techs).
I would kind of add flavour and would not really overpower the Clan, too.

 

[Sarisin]

I often like playing games with the raging barb option. Playing a civ at peace with the barbs takes a bit of fun out of it for me.

But, most of all, I don't like having to manage that 50% rule that will turn the barbs on you if you have 50% more pts than the next civ. It is too easily broken and you usually have a sprawling civ with not much protection. It is ripe for destruction by the barbs if they turn on you.

I won't play Charadon for the same reason.

 

[onedreamer]

I have found them a bit weaker than other civs, and their strenght decreases as much as you play on harder difficulty.

I'd say the contrary, they are better on harder difficulty because of their fast expansion and friendship with barbarians.
If you try the last version of RoM, all leaders with barbarian trait become even stronger.

 

[marioflag]

I'd say the contrary, they are better on harder difficulty because of their fast expansion and friendship with barbarians.
If you try the last version of RoM, all leaders with barbarian trait become even stronger.

You have a good point.
IMO there are also 2 things to consider when playing CoE on harder difficulties.
- AIs research faster than you
-on harder difficulties AI have more starting units,you can support less units, AI should have also production bonuses (?)

Considering that playing with CoE times runs against you, rushing on harder difficulties is harder or at least more costly (both in terms of units needed and research sacrificed to be converted in gold), if things initially goes badly, games after become a lot harder than playing other civs

 

[onedreamer]

yeah you're right. But to be honest I wasn't considering the civ as played by the human player. I think this civ makes more sense played by the AI.

 

[Dark Russell]

Does anyone know where the info for determining the Goblin Scouts upgrade to Warg Rider upon victory over a wolf would be? Is it in the XML or in Python?

 

[onedreamer]

I would guess python.

 

[Kael]

Yeah, its python in the combat result code.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I thought Sheelba was brought back to her own kind to teach them to be more civilized. I don't see why a girl raised by the Bannor would revert back to barbarism so completely. Neither barbarian nor scorched earth are approprite for her.

 

[Nikis-Knight]

imo, traits go beyond just the leader. Einon Logos would have a hard time keeping Orc axemen from razing towns after conquest.
The barbarian still fits, because even if she wants to elevate her people, she's not going to turn on the wild orcs.
Of course, that's just justification, it might be interesting to have a non-barb/scorched earth Clan leader.