What if...nothinig is true

Yoda Power

✫✫✫✫✫✫✫
Joined
Sep 24, 2002
Messages
13,870
Lets say that nothing of the history that take place before 0AD is true but just made in the medival ages by different people of different reasons. What do you think happend before 0AD if that was a fackt(im not saying that it is, its just a thought).
 
Well, it doen not need be a what-if.
There is actually a group of german historians who made some research and now they claim that our historiography made a jump of almost 300 years somewhere between 600 and 900. That would mean that the whole story of Charlemagne has been made up.
I`ll look for the links, we had a discussion about that on the europa universalis forum already and as I started it it shouldn`t be hard to find :)
 
If that's true, I guess the Pyramids just kind of...popped up, you know? Same with Stonehenge, I'd assume. Oh, and the Parthenon is probably just some rocks that fell together really well.

There's no way that history could have been fabricated like that.
 
That seems like a big rubbish to me. Did they convince the entire world to do so? Did the arabs and the chinese, for instance, also decide to fabricate 300 years(and how did he come to the conclusion that it was exactly 297 years and how did he come to the years 614 and 911?)?
Oh, and wasn't it in the year 622 that the Hegira took place? Did they also fabricate Mohammad. If that's true, then the Islamic calendar only starts in the year 919. Amazingly, by this time the arabs were already masters of the middle east, north africa and most part of Iberia. Did this hapen from one day to the other? How does the author of these thesis explains the differences in the european geopolitics between the VII century and the X century? :rolleyes:

I'd laso like to hear about China. I'm not any expert, but I'd like to hear from Knight-Dragon something about these 297 years.
Plus, I do not know about other places, but here the christian era only started to be used in official documents in the XIV century. Before the years were counted ab urbe condita, ie, since the foundation of Rome. Was this calendar also shifted in 300 years?

And what about that "obscure" datation method, Carbon 14 they call it. Are all the labs that do the analysis also in this sort of world medieval conspiracy? :rolleyes:

And finally (and decisive in my opinion), the oldest important historical event that we know the exact day it ocured is a battle that took place in the VI century BC between th lydians and the medes. During the battle, a fortunate event happened: a solar eclipse took place, and the armies ceased the fighting and a peace treaty was signed because the two kings thought that it was a sign from the Gods that they had gone too far. The historians knew more less the year, but thanks to astronomical calculations the day could be tracked and found out to be the 28th of May 585 BC. If 300 years of history had been made up, then they would find out that no eclipse had ocured in that place at that time period.

Check here. It is the 9th paragraph.
 
Originally posted by MCdread
I'd laso like to hear about China. I'm not any expert, but I'd like to hear from Knight-Dragon something about these 297 years.
Those years were arguably the Golden Age of Imperial China with the Sui and Tang dynasties. The Chinese were great at recording stuff and we had some extensive records left fr this periods; also poems, private works etc. Pretty hard to fabricate.... There was also extensive archaeological stuff left over. ;) Including the Grand Canal. Try fabricating that....
 
This is more philosophical than historical. The idea that none of what we believe is true has been suggested before. The two most notable cases were both in the 20th century. First, the philosopher Bertrand Russell suggested that perhaps the world was just created 20 minutes ago. Wrinkles on faces, dinosaur fossils, and all your memories have just been placed here by god to mislead you. This is unlikely in the extreme, but still possible. It's worth mentioning that Russell did not believe this theory, he just used it as an example for the value of skepticism when analyzing data or appealing to authority.
The second case was Dr. Einstein, who said that the only constant in the universe is the speed of light, and everything else depends on this point of view. General relativilty is complicated, but here's an example. Sound is actually a series of waves created by atoms knocking into eachother. What we percieve as sound, howeever, is what we hear. This is not what sound truly is, but rather how we experience it from our point of view.
I'm not much a fan of metaphysics, personally (I'm a philosophy grad student, by the way). I think it's entertaining enough and it has its place, but it's one of the less practical branches of philosophy in terms of a normal person's life. We could debate about whether all triangles really have three sides for eternity, and while it might be diverting, it's not the sort of thing that puts gas in the car or bread on the table. Just my two cents.
 
Isn't Kripke's reading of Wittgenstein along similar lines - ie that after a while there is no value in questioning whether anything TRULY exists and at some point we have to accept reality as being, well, real and just get on with it.

NB - my jurisprudence might be a bit rusty but I THINK that's what he was on about (I may have also spelt his name wrong :blush: )
 
Yes, that's right. If I recall, he was addressing the question of why everything exists instead of nothing. This led to how we really know anything exists. This is why I try to stick to ethics and avoid metaphysics whenever possible.
 
it's an interesting but useless discussion I think. You won't find an answer. So what if nothing is true? Now what? Nothing you can do about it. Thinking about this kind of things only trains the mind.
 
As to Zeitsprung, that idea is based on the fact that most of the german historiography from the period of ~600-900 cannot be confirmed by meanings of archeology. We cannot find most of the cities mentionned by old chronicles from those days for example. His explanation toward islamitic and byzantine time-changes sounds more obscure though... here though the "sprungs" could have been made in different times, or the timescale could have been "fixed" later.
As to chinese - well, it doesn`t mean that the chinces changed their history at all - there are no common points between their and european historiography before ~1200 so differences in timescale from before could hardly be proved or dismissed that way.
 
On the other hand the theory of Zeitsprung gives a nice solution to the common historical problem of "ghost-states" of south-eastern Europe from the early middleages. The existance of states as Samo-state, greater Moravia, 2 Bulgarian kingdoms, Kingdom of Avars and the Greater Serbia are hardly to be proved - most info is very obscure and there are again hardly any archeological proofs. THAT would be a blow to the balkan nationalismus though ;)
 
So, how do you handle with the informations that we can get from exact sciences, such as Physics and Astronomy, and the particular example I gave in my earlier post, not to mention the results of carbon 14?

There's more world outside Central and Eastern Europe.
And btw, there have been indirect contacts with China earlier.
 
the greater serbia is a story made up centuries later by serbian nationalist, at least that's what my history teacher told me. Serbian nationalism is incredibly new to the world, and the whole idea of a Serbian kingdom, conquered by the Ottomans, is unaccurate or even completely false.
 
Originally posted by MCdread
So, how do you handle with the informations that we can get from exact sciences, such as Physics and Astronomy, and the particular example I gave in my earlier post, not to mention the results of carbon 14?
Well, the answer of the Zeitsprung theoreticians is that the c14 method is wrong ;) I don`t get much of his explanation as my german is not that great so I cannot give you his arguments....
There's more world outside Central and Eastern Europe.
And btw, there have been indirect contacts with China earlier.
Well, when? and were those between cultures of which we have written resources, which also had a clear calendar which we know?
 
Originally posted by willemvanoranje
the greater serbia is a story made up centuries later by serbian nationalist, at least that's what my history teacher told me. Serbian nationalism is incredibly new to the world, and the whole idea of a Serbian kingdom, conquered by the Ottomans, is unaccurate or even completely false.
I wouldn`t go that far. We have more information of Serbia being actually a state under Dusans in the 13th and 14th century, and actually treatening the Byzantines even earlier, till it was finally defeated in 2 campaigns by the Ottomans (the first is the infamous Kossov-polje, the 2nd annihilated the restants of Sernbia)
however, I have more doubts, and not only me, about a Great Serbia in 800....
 
Originally posted by Kasperus

Well, the answer of the Zeitsprung theoreticians is that the c14 method is wrong ;)
How convenient for them. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Kasperus

Well, when? and were those between cultures of which we have written resources, which also had a clear calendar which we know?

Both China and Rome for instance, knew about each other, or better said, knew about the existance of the other. I once read a book where it said that there exist chinese records of at least to roman embassies to China. However the author thought that they were probably indian merchants trying to get some advantadge of the name Rome. And the name of the roman emperor at the time seems similar to the one that is preserved in the chinese records. I do'n have the details here, but I think it was during the ruling of the antonines in Rome.
And there's allways the Silk Rout.

But, the romans had contacts with India, and there were roman merchants living there, so...

You can allways check for know geological events in the tree rings or in the ice polar layers, such as the vesuvius eruption.
You don't need to create a wild theory to solve a problem on one zone of the globe.
The Zeitsprung is a fake and worst than that, a bad one. I'm sorry, but even Charroux or von Daniken had a better effort.
 
What if... All apples were really made of cellulose and other organic materials...? :eek:

...:D
 
Back
Top Bottom