What if USA didn't involved in WWI ?

Steph, you forgotr the about 100 captured tanks :p. Anyway Britain was already under strategic bombing and another year with less resources would have brought both parties to the negotiation table.

Adler
 
Steph, you forgotr the about 100 captured tanks :p.
Oh yes, sorry... That makes 120 tanks against 10,000, and 30,000 the eyar after. The allies clearly had better run for the hills. Not a chance to win at at only 300 against 1.
 
Steph, you forgotr the about 100 captured tanks :p. Anyway Britain was already under strategic bombing and another year with less resources would have brought both parties to the negotiation table.

Adler
In 1918 there were only eleven Zeppelin raids on the UK, the last of these on August 5, and the trend had been steadily dropping ince 1915.

Germany was being relentlessly pushed back in every area, including the air war.
 
I did not say anything about Zeppelins, but planes. Never heard about Zeppelin Staaken R.VI strategic bomber or the attacks with Gotha G. V bombers?
Hmm.. Are they the one from the famous saying "When you Gotha go, you Gotha go?"

Gothas carried out a total of 22 raids on England, dropping 186,830 lb (84,745 kg) of bombs for the loss of 61 aircraft.

On the night of May 19, 1918, the Gothas returned to England for the last and largest raid of the war. Bogohl 3 sortied 38 Gothas against London, but suffered heavy losses in the process. Six Gothas were shot down by interceptors and anti-aircraft fire, while a seventh aircraft was lost in a landing accident. After this raid, Gothas operated as tactical bombers against targets on the Western Front.


So no more strategic bombing from Gotha after May 1918
 
Yes, but the R. VI were still conducting the attacks with great success.

Adler
Until July 1918, when raids on the UK ceased entirely.

Paris was targetted with air-raids all the way up to the Armistice though.

I think the point is that whatever way the situation is sliced in 1918, the French and the British were poised to throw even more machinery and hardware at the German armies and Germany proper, with no significant increase in German resources to counter this swell. The opposite rather.

Which is why I maintain that the only way for Germany to come out of WWI winning, even without a million US Doughboys obligingly showing of for the big slaughter this war was, is through a shift in supply and production capacities in its favour.

Without it, the German armies would sooner, or possibly later, be overwhelmed. WWI was largely about artillery. The one with the mostest and the biggest won. And from about mid-1917, that was no longer Germany.

WWI was a war of materiel, as all involved worked out in the end. And towards the end of it all, Britain and France were racing ahead of Germany in production and supply. Eventually the margin would have become great enough to win the conflict outright, even without the US troops, who arrived with little gear of their own and had to be equipped by their allies.

At best there might be room for a negotiated peace at some point, depending on how quickly the material superiority started to tell.
 
Verbose, true, the Germans had no longer so many heavy guns as they realized for their new shock and awe strategies medium and light guns. This new strategy is another factor why the Germans would have made it the Entente much worse to win it.

Adler
 
Verbose, true, the Germans had no longer so many heavy guns as they realized for their new shock and awe strategies medium and light guns. This new strategy is another factor why the Germans would have made it the Entente much worse to win it.

Adler
But by "shock and awe strategies" here you are referring to Stormtropper/Hutier tactics, no?

And since I think we started out by observing that with no Americans in their millions on the horizon, Germany had the option of hunkering down to adopt a defensive position, which again negates a lot of the usefulness of medium and light guns designed for offensive operations. This was the exact problem of the French army in the early days of the war; lots of medium and light guns deployed in a form of battle requiring heavy long-range guns.

I assume it would allow the Germans to execute better counter offensives, but there is nothing in that situation allowing Germany to actually break through and win, unless they don't adopt a defensive position at all, but go for the kind of major offensives they did historically. Otherwise that initiative would remain with the Entente, depending on how fast they could churn out enough artillery, tanks and planes.

Which is also why I'm dubious as to any assumption that a later major German offensive would have been more successful. Either the German army gets caught up in events, responding to Entente offensives, or when there is more time to strengthen lines and bring in more gear, the British and French forces are bolstered quicker than their German counterparts, making the task again harder for the Germans.

Best German scenario under the circumstance; the Entente again attacks after underestimating the number of tanks and guns needed, gets bloodied, and comes away contemplating offering terms... Or not, and come back later, better prepared...

In any instance, the German army was from the start of WWI, and remaining so, outgunned by the French army in medium and light artillery alone. The French paid in blood in the early years of the war for not having the heavy arty to match the Germans, and only caught up in mid-1917, but they always had plenty of good medium artillery to be used in their planned offensive operations, the ones that never really materialised as they had conceived, with the exception of the Battle of the Marne, which they won.

This is what I mean with the tide being against the Germans. Whatever statistic we are going to chose, as far as equipment and materiel is concerned, by 1918 Germany was coming up short.

What it had going for it in 1918 was the relative manpower situation (I say "relative" for the German army also found it harder to take large numbers of casualties by 1918, than earlier in the war, just like everyone else). Which is why Stormtroopers made sense in a way, despite leading to rather heavy casualtiues for the attacker. They were still in some respects a matter of making a virtue out of necessity.

By comparison the French and British could stick with churning out guns, tanks and planes until the point where they could dominate the Germans. That this was the way to do it was known since at least 1916. What was consistently underestimated was exactly how huge the numbers to let you do that would actually be. By 1918 they would seem to have been getting there, both in understanding what was required and in the ability to provide it, after some very dearly bought lessons.
 
All the German Allies were collapsing and that situation wasn't effected by American men finally getting involved. The critical moment was in 1914-1915 when our munitions industries were so primative and in Britain our manpower not in any position to be deployed.

Factor in that the Americans really couldn't afford to let us lose given how much we had borrowed off them.
 
i think that w/o the americans the french and germans would have drove much further in2 germany or even berlin. w/o the americans tehre probably wouldnt have been a ww2 because germany would be even more destroyed.
the after effects would have been horrible to, 10x larger depressions in GB, France and US and germany
 
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