What is so great about the combat?

[juanbobo]

I've only played a bit of the demo, but I can't understand why people talk so much about the combat and how much better it is. You can no longer have a stack of doom, but I don't think there's anything really inspiring in only being able to have one unit per tile. You can throw around the word "tactical" and whatnot, but I wish there was more to be excited about that this and various other new limitations.

 

[Hinkel84]

There is a mod already out, which adds the stacking ability to Civ V

 

[juanbobo]

Not that I miss stacks of doom, was just wondering what is so wonderful about the new system because it seems to be the feature people are most excited about.

 

[nekom]

1upt makes battles a little more like a chess board. You have to move all of your units individually and play to their strengths and weaknesses. For better or for worse, it's a whole new dynamic. I look forward to developing strategies for it.

 

[juanbobo]

I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing, I welcome the drastic changes to the gameplay, I just hope Civ 5 has the depth of 4, it's hard to tell after only a day.

 

[BjoernLars]

Though with my limited amount of experience playing the game only in demo, I have been able to virtually an entire civilization under 100 turns. I enjoyed it greatly.

I think as the armies grow and with the limited amount of terrain and resources this combat system is going to make the player more focus and involved than the previous giant stacks smashing against each other.

 

[Thaqui]

You'll need to try it to see how much of a difference it makes. Rather than a mad rush of units, every unit can be useful, every unit is valuable. It enables you to use the terrain to your advantage and hold off superior forces with a better battle strategy.

 

[Zhahz]

In theory, 1UPT makes for much more tactical combat. Unit placement, unit function, range supporting melee, more intelligent use of promotions, using great generals to beef up your troops, etc all combine for a vastly more tactical experience than just plowing large stacks into each other. Stack based combat involves very little thought -and zero tactics. Build stack, move stack. In Civ IV, make sure you have lotsa collateral potential in your stack. Not very strategic or tactical and it's the same for every single battle.

In practice, the AI is lacking, IMO. Gonna play more before writing a mother of a post describing failings of the tactical AI. First impression (after conquest and lots of war victory) is that the AI programmer should've read the "intro to hex-based combat" "basic strategy and tactics" articles at the Wesnoth site.

There is a mod already out, which adds the stacking ability to Civ V

I see nothing good about this. If you want to play with stacks, stick to Civ IV. It's unlikely that the Civ 5 AI can handle stacks so you're basically cheating - or cheating yourself.

 

[squadbroken]

After Civ 4's combat anything is awesome

 

[QuothTheRaven]

One thing I've noticed is that artillery are *extremely* powerful when they're setup and sieging, but they're also terribly vulnerable to direct assault. So with SoD combat, I'd just stack my whole army on top of the artillery and move around blowing things to pieces (granted artillery wouldn't be as strong in a balanced non-1UPT system). But here with 1UPT I'm having to do a good bit of work thinking about positioning my forces to protect the artillery from frontal assault.

 

[CustodianV131]

The demo is sort of a bad representation of what the combat can do. There are to few units yet with to few movement/special/ranged options

If you didn't watch it yet the 2nd part of the Ustream shows more of why 1upt can be a really great system.

http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/9553920

 

[baberg]

The one thing I really love about the new combat system is that when I lose a unit now I really feel it. Losing a single archer unit early in a city siege can be the difference between taking a city and getting wiped. Part of that is probably because (in my limited experience) units don't come out nearly as fast as they used to so each one seems much more valuable.

I also love having to think tactically about where I move my artillery. Too close and they'll be wiped out by a low-level infantry unit. Too far away and they're useless. Plus there are only so many angles to approach the city by - do I risk putting my catapult adjacent to the city so I can get more firepower on it, or should I surround the city first with knights and wear them down over a few turns?

 

[PawelS]

Eliminating SoD is enough to make it great compared to Civ4. Also it makes terrain matter - units can cover large areas during wars, there are fronts, and it's important where you place your units.

And it's similar to some of my favorite games - Panzer General series, and Fantasy Wars/Elven Legacy.

 

[ohioastronomy]

Computer AI at this point just isn't up to the challenges associated with the new combat mechanics. They really can't shuffle their pieces to keep the tough units on the outside and the vulnerable ones shielded. The result is that the AI can't fight effectively against a human.

You also create painful bottlenecks (try and send a significant army through a narrow point..really); things like dispatching workers to build a long road between two distant cities are now actively annoying. Some of this may be fixed with mods, but I'm afraid that a lot of it may be locked in by the design itself.

 

[SlothMD]

I've only played a bit of the demo, but I can't understand why people talk so much about the combat and how much better it is. You can no longer have a stack of doom, but I don't think there's anything really inspiring in only being able to have one unit per tile. You can throw around the word "tactical" and whatnot, but I wish there was more to be excited about that this and various other new limitations.

Well, a couple things, and not *just* the 1 upt but also the ranged rules and the end of winner-take-all combat.

Combined arms means something now - because you don't have two stacks slugging it out face-to-face, the battlefield ranges across the map a bit more. Which means that you can't rely on having all your units in the best defensive terrain. So it makes sense to have a mix of units that take advantage of different terrains, and then jockeying to make sure that each unit is used to its best advantage. Also, the new combat rules mean that you'll have a lot more damaged units running around, and managing your combat to successfully pass units back and forth from the front becomes crucial. Finally, you can no longer send your SOD directly to the schwerpunkt - you have to jockey around it and scrum over it. (as an add on, the fact that cavalry now serves their correct historical function is AWESOME)

 

[Xzylvador]

^seconded on the workers... I still want to give 1upt a chance, but 1 worker per tile, man that sucks.

 

[WuphonsReach]

I think it's going to take time to bear fruit and show whether it's going to work or not. I love the hex system, but am ambivalent about the 1 unit per tile. I like the concept, but also would have been fine with a "you can only stack N units here" limitation. With the "only N" limit you could even make it so that different unit types have bigger/smaller footprints within the hexagon.

SoD had its charms - you needed to design your SoD to handle what you were going up against, with the right balance of forces. But because SoD existed, you couldn't send out smaller groups as they would get slaughtered by enemy SoDs.

So I think I'm leaning in favor of the 1 unit per tile, and I think it will make sense on larger maps.

However - they really need to add a "swap places" option so you can take a turn and have two units exchange positions. (Maybe I missed that command...)

I'm sure the enemy AI is going to need a lot of work... or at least it will need to be heavily modded to fight better in tactical situations.

 

[Oneluv]

Nothing is great about the new system. they thru junk at the wall and are relying on the Civ community to root out the wheat from the chaff, and then create a workable product based on those findings The new system is slow and impossible for the A.I to deal with well. The developers new this but went ahead anyway. And why not?They got away with it in Civ IV didn't they?

 

[cdog]

If you thought the SToD was fun then, then yea I guess you might not like 1UPT. But seriously, did anyone actually think that was fun? One thing I will agree with is the annoyance with workers - I wouldnt even mind if they couldnt simultaneously work, but they should definatly be able to occupy same hex. Also, great generals can occupy same hex as combat unit, but not a worker?? I wouldn't say it's perfect, but I'm having fun with it.

 

[wilebill]

Meh. Everyone used SoD for years and years. Now suddenly we see how horrible that was? Not really.

Suppose we had 1UPT in Civ III and Civ IV with hexes, and then suddenly in Civ V the Great New Thing is Square Tiles and (drum roll) introducing the wondrous and illustrious SoD game play. The band wagon would be playing the same tune only opposite.

Not that big of a deal really. If it's new it must be better is not true. What is true is that you can get used to either.