what is the civic that you least use?

[Jimbo30]

The point is, if they grow back, they aren't doing anything useful. In your example, feeding unhappy people = content lower population, with the notable difference that the content lower population has 30 hammers per sacrificed unhappy person as additional compensation.

No, the content lower population would now be unhappy lower population due to +1 unhappiness from slaving.

Edit - explained that badly.

 

[CivDude86]

Thats why you whip a happyness building or whip at least 2 people at the same time.

 

[Jimbo30]

Whipping a happiness building is probably a good idea if you've outgrown your cities happiness.

For me it's much better to just let your city grow to it's happiness maximum then turn on avoid growth and max production. A lot depends on the game speed too - whipping on Marathon speed (the speed I play at now) isn't a good idea because of the time it takes cities to grow.

 

[Antilogic]

But you also get more hammers in compensation. I typically play Epic games, and despite the longer growth times (+50%), build times (+50%), the hammer compensation is up as well (hey, about +50%), so that shouldn't really affect your planning all that much.

No, the content lower population would now be unhappy lower population due to +1 unhappiness from slaving.

Edit - explained that badly.

Honestly, I still don't understand what you are talking about. Say I have 1 unhappy person in my city who refuses to work, and then I whip a building or unit for 2 people. The unhappiness changes by this factor: +1 whip -2 crowd, so overall -1 unhappiness--that means your city is a little more happy, and you won't have that rioter so long as you don't grow. If you whip a happiness building, though, you can grow back fairly quickly and still have no rioters.



Too many people think it isn't worth the sacrifice...but it is. I assure you--just try it. Or, try to build a slave production city by maximizing food income and then whipping everything. You will run out of things to build if you have at least 2 food resources to boost your food income. That city can also quickly convert to a specialist city simply because you will have the buildings required to run specialists from your whipping.

 

[johnny42strom]

I voted for Police State, becuase by the time it shows up, there are much better choices. Also, I often get rid of War Wearisness by killing my enemy. Just me, I don't know. Honestly, though, I should have voted for Environmentalism. I almost always need to use State Property becuase I play on large maps and go for domination.

Mercantilism can be pretty worthless, but I often do it for awhile when the computer goes on their Mercantilism kick ( the "I just got a new civic so I'm going to use it" kick). When all your good trade partners are gone (all friendly civs under Mercantilism) why not get the free specialist.

 

[Jimbo30]

Honestly, I still don't understand what you are talking about. Say I have 1 unhappy person in my city who refuses to work, and then I whip a building or unit for 2 people. The unhappiness changes by this factor: +1 whip -2 crowd, so overall -1 unhappiness--that means your city is a little more happy, and you won't have that rioter so long as you don't grow. If you whip a happiness building, though, you can grow back fairly quickly and still have no rioters.

Well if you deliberately grow a city to unhappiness in order to whip it for 2 people, what have you done?

Lets assume a size 6 city with an unhappiness level of 7.

At size 5, this city was content and growing. At size 6, you whip two to send it back to size 4 and content, and it can only grow to a content size 5 if you whipped a happiness building.

On the other hand, you could have turned on avoid growth and max production at size 5. By using an extra mine you'll get between 4-6 extra hammers every turn. At epic speed you get what, 45 hammers for every whipped person? And 20 turns of 'so cruel' I think, so that 20 turns of being unable to work the mine has cost you 80-120 hammers over that time.

You can offset the cruelty thing by whipping a happiness building but it will still cost you a little bit in extra cash/research from the time it takes you to get back to size 5 from 4 after whipping.

Sure you can micromanage it perfectly in certain cities and gain a small benefit, but wholesale whipping is not the best option for every city and chances are just by specialising the city you choose to whip, you'll gain similar results in the long run.

 

[Antilogic]

Really, one mine gives you 4-6 hammers per turn? That's pretty incredible, considering a plains hill mine yields 4 at max. And you'll already be working metal deposits, so don't mention that, unless you somehow have 2-3 metal resources in a single city (in that case, that's just dumb luck). And unless your mine also gives you 1 commerce, you don't lose anything in terms of research and tax money by whipping.

And I think you are off for the unhappiness due to whipping on epic speed...I don't remember exactly what it is off the top of my head, but I thought it was 15, not 20.

And you don't let a city grow to unhappiness, ever, if you can avoid it. You whip the turn before it grows, and then grow back to your original size. Also, that has the benefit of maximizing your food income because you don't have unhealthiness (your population is low). If you play on a lower difficulty level, then all this will seem pointless because you receive so much in terms of free happiness and healthiness. Although, I think, you'd be hard-pressed to find a successful Emperor player or above who doesn't whip and chop (not discussed here, but another form of quick production) judiciously.

Also, there is the issue of initiative--by whipping out troops early, you will have a brief advantage in military strength (or on high levels, a brief "not so weak" moment in strength because the AI receives huge bonuses). The exploitation of that advantage is crucial, but it leads to long term rewards. Especially if you take a warmonger approach, hitting the AI hard and often is essential and your top priority, and you can start earlier with whipping.


What's a good post without a case study? Here's a picture from a game I won a month ago or so; I used this same picture to defend whipping and chopping in another thread where someone not experience in the ways of beating your people into submission suggested the same thing you did:

Notice how unproductive this city I culture-flipped from the AI is? (Don't mention those tiles off to the right, those are taken by a more important core city.) You know, though, at 2 food, 3 commerce those coastal squares could really be effective in boosting my economy...but I need some improvements...

Here's an idea. I let the city grow to size 4, and then I whip the building I want so the city falls to size 2. I gain 9 food a turn here, 11 when I whip a lighthouse, so the surplus maxes at 11-4 = 7 food per turn. On epic speed, it takes 45 food for a city of that size to grow, and at 7 food per turn I fill that in 45/7 = ~6.5 turns. After a granary, 45 / (2 * 7) = ~3.2 turns. And yes, because the new citizens can work 2 food tiles, this holds until the city grows to size 5 (as pictured).

Now for the fun part, if I whip 2 people, my city still gains 7 food a turn, and will replace both within about ~6.5 turns after the granary (the first thing you whip, followed by a lighthouse here).

Look at the hammer output as well...90 hammers for whipping two people, with a 6.5 turn replacement time. That's ~13.8 hammers per turn without any mines present! Even if I had two mines, or even iron supplies on those two squares that it neighbors on the right, I could only get ~8 hammers per turn from them!

Now, you are going to say "but that's a commerce city, and you won't produce any commerce by whipping because you won't be able to work those coastal squares and cottage!" True, but by whipping out a granary and lighthouse to quicken my growth time, I will be able to whip a library, marketplace, grocer, maybe even a bank/university and then let the city grow. In the long run, that city will come out ahead in terms of commerce so long as the game doesn't end too quickly (which it didn't).

The thing is, you only have to find a city location with 2 sources of food to make this work. And with livestock such as sheep and pigs, the farm resources like corn, rice, and wheat, coastal resources which can be boosted by a lighthouse, and even sugar (a plantation resource)--there are plenty of opportunities to make this trick work. And you will get more production than by working a mine or two (or even 3). And if you have 3 food resources, which are more rare but still possible (my capital had it once...), it's even better!

And as for happiness, with hereditary rule, 4 happiness resources, a temple or two later on...you can prolong this whipping phase for awhile, and have over 10 happiness in this small town while your whip-induced unhappiness approaches a figure like 8 or 9 when you are at size 4-5. Then, you cool it for ~10 turns by running some specialists in all those buildings you just whipped, then start all over again!


I'm not going to say it is easy, but if you do manage it properly, there is a much larger benefit than what you suggest. And this is why slavery is not a useless civic--any civic that can turn an otherwise unproductive 2 hammer city into a ~13.8 by whipping along (14.8 from the city square, not counting that forest hammer but it's there too, part of the time...) is not useless.

 

[Jimbo30]

Really, one mine gives you 4-6 hammers per turn? That's pretty incredible, considering a plains hill mine yields 4 at max. And you'll already be working metal deposits, so don't mention that, unless you somehow have 2-3 metal resources in a single city (in that case, that's just dumb luck). And unless your mine also gives you 1 commerce, you don't lose anything in terms of research and tax money by whipping.

Well any mined hill gives 3 hammers minimum and 1 food, and anything below that you mine is giving you something a lot better like 7 commerce or something.

And I think you are off for the unhappiness due to whipping on epic speed...I don't remember exactly what it is off the top of my head, but I thought it was 15, not 20.

Well it's 10 Normal and 30 on Marathon so I assume it is 20 on Epic.

And you don't let a city grow to unhappiness, ever, if you can avoid it. You whip the turn before it grows, and then grow back to your original size. Also, that has the benefit of maximizing your food income because you don't have unhealthiness (your population is low). If you play on a lower difficulty level, then all this will seem pointless because you receive so much in terms of free happiness and healthiness. Although, I think, you'd be hard-pressed to find a successful Emperor player or above who doesn't whip and chop (not discussed here, but another form of quick production) judiciously.

I only mentioned that in response to your double whip point. If you don't let it grow to unhappiness then you'll lose two productive workers until you grow back.

What's a good post without a case study? Here's a picture from a game I won a month ago or so; I used this same picture to defend whipping and chopping in another thread where someone not experience in the ways of beating your people into submission suggested the same thing you did:

Notice how unproductive this city I culture-flipped from the AI is? (Don't mention those tiles off to the right, those are taken by a more important core city.) You know, though, at 2 food, 3 commerce those coastal squares could really be effective in boosting my economy...but I need some improvements...

Here's an idea. I let the city grow to size 4, and then I whip the building I want so the city falls to size 2. I gain 9 food a turn here, 11 when I whip a lighthouse, so the surplus maxes at 11-4 = 7 food per turn. On epic speed, it takes 45 food for a city of that size to grow, and at 7 food per turn I fill that in 45/7 = ~6.5 turns. After a granary, 45 / (2 * 7) = ~3.2 turns. And yes, because the new citizens can work 2 food tiles, this holds until the city grows to size 5 (as pictured).

Now for the fun part, if I whip 2 people, my city still gains 7 food a turn, and will replace both within about ~6.5 turns after the granary (the first thing you whip, followed by a lighthouse here).

Look at the hammer output as well...90 hammers for whipping two people, with a 6.5 turn replacement time. That's ~13.8 hammers per turn without any mines present! Even if I had two mines, or even iron supplies on those two squares that it neighbors on the right, I could only get ~8 hammers per turn from them!

Not constantly because the unhappiness duration is added to any current one going. You can't maintain 13.8 hammers a turn from whipping this city because you have to give it a break to reset the unhappiness.

Like I said though, it's fine on certain city types. This city is never really going to amount to anything much so it seems pretty pointless to micromanage it in such a way. Over the course of a full game you might get 1/2 a tech's worth of extra commerce by whipping this city, but for most of us it's too much hassle to be worth it.

All it does is make the game easier by making it a chore, and I reckon most of us have figured that playing the game at Prince or Monarch level and avoiding the extremes of micromanaging (I personally chop like hell) leads to more enjoyment.

 

[Antilogic]

Note that I included an explanation of what to do in the meantime there with regard to unhappiness, just read another paragraph down. Please read the entire post, as I have already countered that argument. Also, remember--if you have the happiness to control a size 12-13 city, then you can definitely handle some little size 4-5 city that you keep whipping. You might have to slow down at some point, but this is good for at least 8 cycles...

One thing when you are talking about productive workers is how productive they are. Is it better to have them producing 4 hammers in a mine or to sacrifice them for production (which is more efficient if you have enough food)? What square is that worker working--if it's a special resource, then keep him working. If it's a cottage, keep him working. If it's a forest or unimproved square, whip him. Sometimes, it's better to whip away somebody working in a mine and let him grow back--you'll get more hammers. It's very situation dependent, but it has its place.



The one point I really wanted to make here was you said it gives a "small benefit" to whip in certain instances. In reality, it gives you a pretty big benefit when you use it correctly. I'll try to find a better city to give an example of (I know this is a pithy small city), but it was the only picture I had on my hard drive of a good whipping city.

 

[DaviddesJ]

Well any mined hill gives 3 hammers minimum and 1 food, and anything below that you mine is giving you something a lot better like 7 commerce or something.

The mined grassland hill is +3 hammers and -1 food, because it takes 2 food to feed the citizen that works it.

 

[DaviddesJ]

But at this point of the game you usually don't need slavery anymore, and unless you play a GP game caste system is not worthy. So adopting serfdom is cheaper and more efficient than building twice the numbers of workers.

In 1.61, slavery is always very useful. It's less useful in the late game in Warlords---I haven't played enough to know how much less. But, usually, by the time I reach the point where I am not using Slavery heavily, I have lots of workers just sitting around with nothing much to do.

I could imagine a game where I am short on workers in the mid-game, but it's hard. The thing is, cities grow more and more slowly as the game goes on, and also once you have the roads you need you don't need to build any more, so, the amount for your workers to do just steadily decreases.

 

[Jimbo30]

Note that I included an explanation of what to do in the meantime there with regard to unhappiness, just read another paragraph down. Please read the entire post, as I have already countered that argument. Also, remember--if you have the happiness to control a size 12-13 city, then you can definitely handle some little size 4-5 city that you keep whipping. You might have to slow down at some point, but this is good for at least 8 cycles...

Yeah I read that but didn't comment on it because it's adding more conditions to having slavery work most effectively. For instance, you could use that point as a reason why Hereditory Rule is good...not just slavery. It also requires the presence of more units in the city which might not necessarily be a good thing. Beware of spending resources elsewhere in order to make an otherwise poor city better than it needs to be by whipping it. If those farms are central to your cities function, they might need protected at all times by units too.

Also, Representation and Caste System might work better and with size 12-13 cities Caste System will definitely be available. It just depends on what type of game you are playing really.

The one point I really wanted to make here was you said it gives a "small benefit" to whip in certain instances. In reality, it gives you a pretty big benefit when you use it correctly. I'll try to find a better city to give an example of (I know this is a pithy small city), but it was the only picture I had on my hard drive of a good whipping city.

Yes I understand that, but in general most people playing the game cant be arsed with that level of micromanagement just in order to play the game one level higher. Most people will use Slavery as an emergency troop builder, or not bother with it at all. They certainly won't base all of their games around it because micromanaging at that level doesn't appeal to most people. Hell many people automate their workers.

 

[ShaLouZa]

In 1.61, slavery is always very useful. It's less useful in the late game in Warlords---I haven't played enough to know how much less. But, usually, by the time I reach the point where I am not using Slavery heavily, I have lots of workers just sitting around with nothing much to do.

I could imagine a game where I am short on workers in the mid-game, but it's hard. The thing is, cities grow more and more slowly as the game goes on, and also once you have the roads you need you don't need to build any more, so, the amount for your workers to do just steadily decreases.

I guess it depends on your style. I usually extend a lot in the very early game, building settlers, troops, some buildings but relatively few workers, improving only my key cities and connecting the resources. When my core empire (5-6 cities) is founded, I still have a lot of tiles to improve and the road network to polish (connect everything with everything to be able to move troops where ever they can be needed, not only connecting the cities and the resources) and serfdom comes handy. Since I usually don't whip too much, except in games where I have really huge food resources, slavery has a limited use in my games after, say, 500 AD. I prefer to let my cities grow and have a shiny research rate with all the cottages worked and some scientists (I'm a tech whore ).

 

[Antilogic]

You know, I'm playing a game as Elizabeth right now, still leading the tech race on Monarch in 1300 CE or thereabouts, and using slavery to hasten production. You just don't whip in your commerce cities--I can maintain a 70-80% research rate without any shrines.

Whipping is effective, and although you need to put some thought into it, it is one of the best civics in the game. I'd have to put State Property ahead of it, and a few others come close. But it's still in the Top 5 no problem.

EDIT: Lame typo.

 

[Reg Pither]

You never had a single unhappy citizen in your whole empire? You never had city with 3+ food resources? You never been caught with your pants down and had to whip a defender out to save a city?

- Yes, but I can deal with them in other ways, and can't be bothered waiting around for the city to grow back again.

- No.

- No.


Maybe it comes into its own on higher levels, as I'm only playing on Noble, and only play Marathon games?

 

[ShaLouZa]

You know, I'm playing a game as Elizabeth right now

Funny: when I was talking about a high food production I was referring to my last game with Elizabeth where I whipped everything until 1600.

I had two cities surrounded with flood plains and my third city was on a coast with fish and another 5+ food land resource (rice or corn, I don't remember). These cities were growing awfully fast and I had to whip to keep them happy, even with specialists, three religions and luxury resources. A good game.

And BTW, I'm now sure that Caste system is the civic I use less. Even when Philosophical, I use Mercantilism and Pacifism but not CS. Slavery and serfdom are just too useful.

edit : typo.

 

[jray]

It looks like I'm the only one who uses Environmentalism (a.k.a. "Ambientalism") in non-OCC games. I play at Monarch level with an extra civ for the map size, so I often get boxed in quickly. I tend to run low on health resources, and since I can't really pick & choose my city locations, I'm often lacking in water too. This all makes for a serious health problem. Beelining to Environmentalism (and adding hospitals to boot) gets my core cities on steroids to make up for the small size of my empire. Plus, the AI hardly ever researches down this tree very early, and hence it gives me nice tradeable techs.

Also consider the relative underwhelming nature of the competing civics in this situation:

Mercantilism - I typically have plenty of specialists already, and not many small/new cities to benefit from one more

Free Market - with fewer cities, the extra trade routes just don't add up to much

State Property - no good for a small empire, although sometimes useful if I have enough food resources or flood plains to make the most out of workshops

I do agree with the other posters, though, that the jungle/forest happiness bonuses are a joke. If they beefed it up to +3 or +4 happiness per jungle/forest, it might start to be worth consideration.

 

[Antilogic]

It is interesting to consider the Hagia Sophia wonder here. I use Serfdom more rarely than I do Slavery (or in some cases, Caste System if I want to run a specialist-heavy economy or have the cities to support 4+ specialists...rare, I know, but possible) because I prioritize this wonder. I find Engineering a great technology because of this, pikemen, and the road movement bonus...

As a Monarch player, I wouldn't be surviving without whipping and strategic chopping. Bronze Working is the most important technology in the early game, by far, because it enables these two options as well as axemen. And, in terms of dealing with unhappiness, I find it better to whip them away for production. If your cities have good food surpluses, then it doesn't take long to grow back, and in the mean time you get hammers while you are fixing the source of the happiness problem. And remember, 2 at once or more to improve happiness!



And it's just a matter of city planning to get a city with 2 food resources in it. I admit, there isn't always a great site with 3 resources, but you can definitely get 2 and use the 2-4 trick I mentioned earlier in this thread in just about every game.

And if that was +3/+4 happiness per jungle/forest...wow. That might be imbalanced in favor of Environmentalism! I would say +2 max.

 

[Arwon]

Environmentalism should give a science bonus or something.

 

[Antilogic]

Why? Environmentalism is not equal to scientific progress, it just means you are more conscious of not destroying the planet around you.