wilboman
Hibernorse Frost Giant
Actually, the idea of making a summoned creature bound to a specific unit or area by a distance modifier is kind of interesting.
What is your favorite Spell Sphere?
- Thread starter Kael
- Start date
onedreamer
Dragon
well the easiest solution is to limit the summon in duration, but if you can make so that a summoned creature (especially a skeleton that has mind 0) can't stay more than 1-2 tiles away from the caster that would be cool too 
Chalid
Black Dragon
The problem is
a) It would need an additional variable for each skeleton that tells him who is his owner.
b) Additional checks each turn.
c) Addintional checks on movement
d) Would not be applicable for Krakens (or you would have to put the caster on a ship which is a horror for AI programming)
e) It would need extra consideration for the AI that needs a lot of code for a special case.
All in all skeletons are not so powerfull that them running free is unbalancing. The Piont above imply that introducing a rule that summons have to stay near will need lots of work for a small effect.
For the most Summons you alreadz have the restriction that they are near to the caster as they disappear after the first turn. So they can be only their movement rate away for the caster.
a) It would need an additional variable for each skeleton that tells him who is his owner.
b) Additional checks each turn.
c) Addintional checks on movement
d) Would not be applicable for Krakens (or you would have to put the caster on a ship which is a horror for AI programming)
e) It would need extra consideration for the AI that needs a lot of code for a special case.
All in all skeletons are not so powerfull that them running free is unbalancing. The Piont above imply that introducing a rule that summons have to stay near will need lots of work for a small effect.
For the most Summons you alreadz have the restriction that they are near to the caster as they disappear after the first turn. So they can be only their movement rate away for the caster.
How about: Make all the other spells more powerful so that all the spells are balanced? 
Or perhaps there should be a small price (to the adept or to the player) for summoning a skeleton? Perhaps make it so that they can't gain experience for one or two turns? And this is cumulative for summoning more skeletons in the turn? And perhaps a reduced chance of gaining experience for when the skeleton is in the field? I guess that doesn't solve a, b and e from Chalid's post though...
Edit: I guess the summoner could get a negative promotion when he summons a skeleton which will disappear in one or two turns. Or perhaps replaced over one or two turns, by other promotions- I get the impression that would be easier to programme.
Or perhaps there should be a small price (to the adept or to the player) for summoning a skeleton? Perhaps make it so that they can't gain experience for one or two turns? And this is cumulative for summoning more skeletons in the turn? And perhaps a reduced chance of gaining experience for when the skeleton is in the field? I guess that doesn't solve a, b and e from Chalid's post though...
Edit: I guess the summoner could get a negative promotion when he summons a skeleton which will disappear in one or two turns. Or perhaps replaced over one or two turns, by other promotions- I get the impression that would be easier to programme.
wilboman
Hibernorse Frost Giant
It could cost him life. In fact, Death magic should perhaps cost the caster strength points, it fits the general feel of death magic.
Kael
Deity
Adepts production cost will be raised in the next version. Making it less effcient to raise adept armies, and therefor skeleton ones.
wilboman
Hibernorse Frost Giant
That means that Mage upgrade prices will go down, ja? Goody
Kael
Deity
wilboman said:That means that Mage upgrade prices will go down, ja? Goody
You know it!
onedreamer
Dragon
Chalid said:
exactly... why should a summoned skeleton follow a different rule ?
loki1232
Loki
onedreamer said:
Because they are very easy to control. What if when they got far away from the caster they got a -25% uncontrolled negative buff?
onedreamer
Dragon
well it would be subject to the problems listed by Chalid in post #23
What if Skeleton could last longer than the other summons but not infinitely ?
What if Skeleton could last longer than the other summons but not infinitely ?
H.GrenadeFrenzy
Laughing Demolitionist
- Joined
- May 14, 2006
- Messages
- 220
Fire is classic from FfH1 and it is loveable in its own right. Water oh sweet water. Enchantment is tough to beat and is only complimented by Body. Death magic is evil and I absolutely agree with the Good races and give a final resting place for those who use it with extreme prejustice.(when I am playing evil it is my first choice). Chaos hasn't worked to well for me just trouble and a wish for Fire. Mind please....more mind. Nature is so wonderful that I may be being transformed into a tree hugging daisy eating greeny. Spirit is good but needs a littlle more don't go near that guy. Law a Supreme Justice would be in order. Life there is never enough life. Can't decide which is my favorite either to much experimenting to be done.....will get back later though....I promise
loki1232
Loki
Lol that sounds like song lyrics.
H.GrenadeFrenzy
Laughing Demolitionist
- Joined
- May 14, 2006
- Messages
- 220
loki1232 said:
Yes,I was influenced by childhood music while writing that from memory only.
Can you guess which song(s)?
A well writen and functioning magic system has that effect on me........I burst into song.........and shouldn't we all.........after the Fall.........(increase in tempo)...........We kill the orcs fast. Like tornades do to Ash. Enchanted arrows light up the glade. As corpses fall, fertilizer is made. Life spells push. Nymphs they rush. To these high ranking elves of this Forest Gold....by the Sages through the Ages..our stories are told.
This one should be easy although much more modern. I'm impressed you noticed the last one. Thanx.
lorgen
Chief Inspector
Fire and nature are my favourites... In my previous game with the Kuriotates (order) I had 3 confessors in my main army, and their ring of flames was more efficient than the sphener, baron Duin (?) Halfmorn, Typhoid mary and valin phanuel.... In most cases I killed half of the defenders just by casting one ring of flames with the three confessors. The remaining ones were all injured. (Why did I bring those unnecessary catapults 
)Once I (unfortunately) even killed a high-level eidolon with orthus`s axe. So the axe disappeared 
. At the same time, my druids transformed all the land in my kingdom with nature-spells 
While I don`t think the death-spells are too strong, I`ve never been fond of the skeletons anyway, I think the ring of flames might be a bit too strong after the previous game. When my sphener ++ only has scouts and lousy, damaged archers left to kill because the confessors have annihilated all the quality-defenders, a campaign is suddenly no challenge...
)Once I (unfortunately) even killed a high-level eidolon with orthus`s axe. So the axe disappeared . At the same time, my druids transformed all the land in my kingdom with nature-spells While I don`t think the death-spells are too strong, I`ve never been fond of the skeletons anyway, I think the ring of flames might be a bit too strong after the previous game. When my sphener ++ only has scouts and lousy, damaged archers left to kill because the confessors have annihilated all the quality-defenders, a campaign is suddenly no challenge...
Moon Hunter
FfH2 addict
definitely nature, fire, water
nature: great summon-tiger, useful for culture building, usefull treetops, and terraforming...
fire: again great summon-lion, although is a pity he cant be used for the carnival as well, meteors and firering are great
water: basic quic terraforming without the need for druids
nature: great summon-tiger, useful for culture building, usefull treetops, and terraforming...
fire: again great summon-lion, although is a pity he cant be used for the carnival as well, meteors and firering are great
water: basic quic terraforming without the need for druids
DarthCycle
Boardgame freak and 4X games enthusiast
- Joined
- Jul 25, 2005
- Messages
- 294
My answer for now is "none of the above".
Why? Right now, magic feels gamey. Not because we can exploit some really efficient spell combo. It's gamey because I don't feel the AI is using magic at all. I have never been the recipient of a spell cast by an AI civ.
The amount of work that has been done with the spell system is impressive. There's a lot of variety between the spell spheres and a lot of possible combo. The cool factor is way up. But if the AI is not using it, I feel it overpowers the human player way too much.
For instance, why create counter death spell if the evil civs are not summoning death creatures? When will I need such counter-spell if I'm playing a good civ? And will the AI ever use it against me if I summon undead units?
Agreed, my experience is limited and biased by only a few games. But until I am the recipient of fireball, meteor swarm, raise skeleton and the like, magic seems to be a human player feature.
The design team has shown us the way they intent to go with the magic system. And it looks really promising. However, I don't think there is a need for balance between the spell sphere when you're the only civ using magic. The next priority, IMO, should be to ensure that the AI civ do use the magic system properly.
Why? Right now, magic feels gamey. Not because we can exploit some really efficient spell combo. It's gamey because I don't feel the AI is using magic at all. I have never been the recipient of a spell cast by an AI civ.
The amount of work that has been done with the spell system is impressive. There's a lot of variety between the spell spheres and a lot of possible combo. The cool factor is way up. But if the AI is not using it, I feel it overpowers the human player way too much.
For instance, why create counter death spell if the evil civs are not summoning death creatures? When will I need such counter-spell if I'm playing a good civ? And will the AI ever use it against me if I summon undead units?
Agreed, my experience is limited and biased by only a few games. But until I am the recipient of fireball, meteor swarm, raise skeleton and the like, magic seems to be a human player feature.
The design team has shown us the way they intent to go with the magic system. And it looks really promising. However, I don't think there is a need for balance between the spell sphere when you're the only civ using magic. The next priority, IMO, should be to ensure that the AI civ do use the magic system properly.
First, I agree to what DarthCycle said. Those who are complaining that certain spells are too powerful should check whether that is maybe only the case because the CPU doesn't use them. Nevertheless I think that some basic balancing can already be done when some feature is extremely overpowered or useless.
About skeletons...
Please do not change the skeletons' permanency. When I play evil civs I love to have a standing summoned skeleton army, even if only for flavor.
I think that another spell is much more overpowering. As much as I hate to say it - because I love those units - the liches' twincast ability is too powerful in combination with meteor swarm. Since you can have three liches, that means 18 meteor swarms per turn...
Additionally, maybe you could make Guardian Vines castable only outside of cities or give them a defense malus for cities. As it is, they're great city defenders (as those don't need to move anyway) and any other potential use like guarding important resource tiles outside is not an efficient option. Mobile units are better for that. Deciding which tile outside should be guarded would make strategic considerations more important than they're now. Oh, and it would certainly add to their nature flavor if they wouldn't always be urban defenders.
About skeletons...
I don't think that skeletons are too strong. Although I try to pick Death I with most of my Adepts, just because they can't learn too many useful promotions, I never get overly powerful using skeletons. It's nice to summon a lot of them, but by the time you get a large number of adepts, 3 strength and no defensive boni is just not very strong anymore. They can make a difference, but that's how it should be; we don't want the spell to be useless, after all. They have their uses (scouting is one of them; I think scouting with skeletons is a feature, not an exploit), but since they're so weak, it's often more effective to build axemen instead of the adepts you need to support such an army. Additionally, death magic makes other civs hate you.onedreamer said:
Please do not change the skeletons' permanency. When I play evil civs I love to have a standing summoned skeleton army, even if only for flavor.
I think that another spell is much more overpowering. As much as I hate to say it - because I love those units - the liches' twincast ability is too powerful in combination with meteor swarm. Since you can have three liches, that means 18 meteor swarms per turn...
Additionally, maybe you could make Guardian Vines castable only outside of cities or give them a defense malus for cities. As it is, they're great city defenders (as those don't need to move anyway) and any other potential use like guarding important resource tiles outside is not an efficient option. Mobile units are better for that. Deciding which tile outside should be guarded would make strategic considerations more important than they're now. Oh, and it would certainly add to their nature flavor if they wouldn't always be urban defenders.
