What Japan did in World War 2

The Japanese made four military innovations in World War 2:

(a) they were the first to successfully co-ordinate
air power, surface ships and submarine shipping
on a strategic basis;

(b) they were the first to use bicycles on a large scale
e.g. in Malaysia to create a supply independent
mobile force;

(c) they invented the concept of the suicide bomber;
their Kami-Kaze attacks on US ships; (should Osama
Bin Ladin pay them for Intellectual Property Rights); and

(d) they pioneered inter-continental bombing by
attaching bombs and incendiaries to balloons
although this was not very successful.
 
Originally posted by stationery2


Well, yes, soldiers raping women happened a lot in history.
But What is important here is that japan institutionalized it and made it something that is totally ok to do.


True, Japan did far worse than the average country in history.

My general understanding is that, throughout the history, army leaders refrained their soldiers from raping and robbing if they were sensible leaders. However, in japan's case, we see that the high officials actually encouraged the soldiers to do it and they set it up for them. Not only that, after the war, they killed those women as if they were trash that is done and over with.

After the war? I doubt they had any power left to do that, after the war. Refused to pay them compensation, yes, that they did (though I think they finally got around to apologizing lately).

And Using the therm 'every' is of course exageration. If someone doesn't understand that it is an exageration, I doubt that person's intelligence.

Yeah, but the poster irritated me. He seemed intent on painting Japan as absolute black. Japan's actions were dark - very much so, true, but even they pale in comparison to the Holocaust on the other side of the word at the same time.

Oh, so it's ok to plunder other country because everyone did it back than?

No. But it's not ok to post a rant about "evil Japan and only evil japan who plundered our resources and kept our resources-rich nation poor"*, or to blame Japan *out of the lots of all other nations*, since everyone was doing it.

*To see it another way, what's your usual answer when someone say : "The current state of the Middle-East is all the Western World fault for plundering us et al"?

Maybe I should go about killing people because some murderers are doing it as well.

Heh.

I do not say "The Japanesse are right in what they did because others did it." (on the plundering side). I say "It's wrong to blame all the plundering (even in the Philipines) on Japan when they were far from the only ones to play that game (and its still being played by many in lots of places)."

That said, I agree that Japanesse behavior on average was *very, very, very wrong* during the war. Not quite Holocaust-level wrong (which is why I'd tend to say Nazi Germany did somewhat worse), but very wrong still.

But "Japanesse are devils born in hell and sexual maniacs" kind of post just annoy the hell out of me - just like "All palestinians are devils born in hells with horns on top of their head" posts annoy me.

In fact, anyone painting anything as utterly evil (black) annoys me. Dark gray, yes, very dark gray, yes. but utterly evil just doesn't exist in this world. Just like utterly good (white).

The black and white vision of this world just get on my nerves.
 
Originally posted by Oda Nobunaga


That said, I agree that Japanesse behavior on average was *very, very, very wrong* during the war. Not quite Holocaust-level wrong (which is why I'd tend to say Nazi Germany did somewhat worse), but very wrong still.

But "Japanesse are devils born in hell and sexual maniacs" kind of post just annoy the hell out of me - just like "All palestinians are devils born in hells with horns on top of their head" posts annoy me.

In fact, anyone painting anything as utterly evil (black) annoys me. Dark gray, yes, very dark gray, yes. but utterly evil just doesn't exist in this world. Just like utterly good (white).

The black and white vision of this world just get on my nerves.

I agree with you here Nobunaga. Some people are intent on saying things like "rape was in the Japanese blood" -- if so, why is the crime rate in Japan one of hte lowest in the world? And no, its not that people aren't reporting it.

People talk of nuclear wasteland, but the fact is that the radiation from a 15 kiloton nuke is very weak and short lived. Chernobyl was/is far more dangerous.

Was Japan as bad as Germany? Well, the Nanjing massacre was deplorable, one of the worst events in World War II. The Japanese treatment of POWs was worse than anyone in the world. Why was Japan so "evil?" Was it in their blood? well, in a sense, yes -- but they believed it to be so.

Starting in the 1820s and gaining steam up to 1868 was a movement in Japan -- sonno joi -- to "revere the emperor, expel the barbarian." Hooked onto this was a revival of the belief of the superiority of the Yamato bloodline. While Japan was humiliated in 1853 by Perry, causing the eventual downfall of the shogunate and the samurai class, the Meiji government was initially still dominated by samurai. Warrior spirit and the superiority of the Japanese blood was paramount to their thinking.

Early Meiji era intellectuals dabbled with Natural Rights philosophy -- Rousseau, Locke, etc -- stuff that founded the US, modern Britain and France -- they even set up the government based on these principles. They said to the West "Hey look, we're modern! Treat us with respect! Revise unfair treaties!" Secretly, they believed they had only been able to do this because of their superior bloodline -- China, Korea, SE Asia were no where near their new level of sophistication.

The west ignored Japan. Japan looked and saw that the most powerful countries werent following rights of man anymore, they were following Imperialsm and social darwinism. Since Japan believed themselves to be a superior race, they latched onto this "scientific" theory of social darwinism and began their descent into imperialism and militarism.

1895 invade and defeat China
1905 invade and defeat Russia

Only then did the West realize that Japan was a new asian force to be reckoned with...and Japan was intent on setting up colonies and controlling Asia. What was their racial plan? To exterminate, like Germany?

No. Japan, although firmly believing they were asuperior race, did NOT want to exterminate other races -- this was foolish. Influenced by Confucian philosophy, they believed that every race held a place in teh heirarchy of society -- Japanese on top. Through the "guidance" (ie Rule, Domination) of Japan, all asian peoples would rise to their natural level in the heirarchy. Extermination wasn't the plan.

Now, regarding the West, they were to be expelled at all costs. They were invaders who planned to rape and kill all Japanese, because they feared teh Japanese superiorty. Their only goal was to humiliate and destroy Japan. That is why Japanese would rather have died than be captured -- they bought into the propaganda. Hirohito in his speech saying that Japan had surrendered asked the people -- who had never heard his voice before --- asked them to "bear the unbearable" -- bear the humiliation of defeat, as well as atrocities against them just as they had done to the US.

Sorry for the long post. got carried away. :)
 
Originally posted by cephyn:

"And no, its not that people aren't reporting it."

Well to my understanding, in Japan, when a woman is raped, it is seen to be a great dishonour and a disgrace to her. Reporting it and otherwise letting people know about it would be making her loose face, a great Taboo in nearly all asian cultures.

Also, if you don't think that there is any crime in Japan, what about the Yakuza? They're one of the most vicious criminal gangs in Japan, if not the world. Their crimes aren't heard because either people are too afraid to report them or because they bribe government officials into downplaying their crimes.

Remember that Japan has about 1500 political parties. Don't tell me that none of these are incorruptable.
 
Originally posted by Sabotage
Originally posted by cephyn:

"And no, its not that people aren't reporting it."

Well to my understanding, in Japan, when a woman is raped, it is seen to be a great dishonour and a disgrace to her. Reporting it and otherwise letting people know about it would be making her loose face, a great Taboo in nearly all asian cultures.


Given that we discussed such topics in my classes on modern Japan in university last term (I'm from Canada, studying in Eastern Asian studies and History), and that I heard nothing of the "non-reported rapes" problem you believe exist, I'm a bit surprised.

It's not impossible, but I've never heard of such a problem. And frankly, defending an accusation against the Japanesse (of them being sexual maniacs) with a simple "Maybe they aren't reporting it" when the point of few rapes is made is rather weak.

Also, if you don't think that there is any crime in Japan, what about the Yakuza?

There is crime in japan, but the crime rate is very low. Which is what the original poster said.

They're one of the most vicious criminal gangs in Japan, if not the world. Their crimes aren't heard because either people are too afraid to report them

If their crimes aren't heard, how do you know they happen? Seriously, yes, there's crime ni Japan, but the crime rate is one of the lowest, if not the lowest, among the modern countries.

Saying "maybe there's more that isn'T reported" is pointless- it apply to *ALL* countries equally.

or because they bribe government officials into downplaying their crimes.

Remember that Japan has about 1500 political parties. Don't tell me that none of these are incorruptable.


Remember that the number of political parties is largely irrelevant since the number of parties which held power between 1945 and 1992 or so is as follow : 1.

Sure they are corruptible. But there's no reason to believe the corruption problem is worse than it is anywhere else in the world. And *MOST* of the corruption problem comes not from the Yazuka, but from the industrial conglomerates (IE, the people who gives them financial backing), much like in any other country. *CoughEnroncoughGroupactioncough*

Japan (post-war) isn't much of a dark country of any sort. I don't know why you try to defend a darker view of Japan without relying on any fact.

If you talked about the schoolbooks, then yes, I could agree. But if you want to attack modern Japan (or Japan, period), rely on facts, not on personal theories on how things might actually be without facts to back it up...
 
Originally posted by Sabotage
Originally posted by cephyn:

"And no, its not that people aren't reporting it."

Well to my understanding, in Japan, when a woman is raped, it is seen to be a great dishonour and a disgrace to her. Reporting it and otherwise letting people know about it would be making her loose face, a great Taboo in nearly all asian cultures.

Also, if you don't think that there is any crime in Japan, what about the Yakuza? They're one of the most vicious criminal gangs in Japan, if not the world. Their crimes aren't heard because either people are too afraid to report them or because they bribe government officials into downplaying their crimes.

Remember that Japan has about 1500 political parties. Don't tell me that none of these are incorruptable.

Im not arguing with most of this. What i'm saying is that the crime rate in Japan is very low compared to the rest of the industrialized countries. For example, compared to Japan, the United States larceny rate is 4 times greater, the rape rate is nearly 25 times greater and the robbery rate is a staggering 140 times greater. This is not because people are just saving face. While there has been a rise in the crime rate since 1998, it is still FAR lower than the US, UK, France or Germany.

While the Yakuza are by no means pacifist or friendly, they patrol the regions of the city they control and keep non-organized crime very low. In heavy Yakuza-populated areas, teh crime rate (minus that committed by the Yakuza) is even lower than in the general population.
 
Originally posted by stationery2
My general understanding is that, throughout the history, army leaders refrained their soldiers from raping and robbing if they were sensible leaders.
Not really, it depends on which army we're talking about. Like the Mongols (and other nomadic hordes), women were considered loot as well. ;)

However, in japan's case, we see that the high officials actually encouraged the soldiers to do it and they set it up for them. Not only that, after the war, they killed those women as if they were trash that is done and over with.
Well, the Imperial Japanese Army definitely had a program to set up groups of these comfort women to serve the needs of the soldiers all around their realm.

But I don't think the killing part was realistic. Many survived the war till even today and are still demanding compensation and admission fr Japan today.
 
Originally posted by Sabotage
Well to my understanding, in Japan, when a woman is raped, it is seen to be a great dishonour and a disgrace to her. Reporting it and otherwise letting people know about it would be making her loose face, a great Taboo in nearly all asian cultures.
It's certainly true. People will look at rape victims differently no matter what, so many cases go unreported. It's a matter of 'face', not just to the victim but also to the family. Although I think such an attitude is slowly ebbing away today with Westernization. :)

Remember that Japan has about 1500 political parties. Don't tell me that none of these are incorruptable.
Even the big parties are corrupt. :rolleyes:
 
Originally posted by cephyn
No. Japan, although firmly believing they were asuperior race, did NOT want to exterminate other races -- this was foolish. Influenced by Confucian philosophy, they believed that every race held a place in teh heirarchy of society -- Japanese on top. Through the "guidance" (ie Rule, Domination) of Japan, all asian peoples would rise to their natural level in the heirarchy. Extermination wasn't the plan.
Japan got this attitude fr the Chinese. For the Chinese, they view themselves as culturally superior to everyone else. This's still prevalent today.

However (unlike the Japanese), it's hard to feel racially superior since many Chinese look the same as the surrounding peoples like Mongolians, Koreans, Vietnamese, Thais etc. It's more prevalent for Chinese fr certain regions (north) to look down on Chinese fr other regions (south). ;)

Sorry for the long post. got carried away. :)
Nice post though. :goodjob:
 
But I don't think the killing part was realistic. Many survived the war till even today and are still demanding compensation and admission fr Japan today.

No, no. They did kill the women after they 'used' them.
Think about that. What defeated army would wanna carry women who are seemingly useless with them? They can't fight, they consume food, and they slow down the march.
Even before the defeat of japan, they killed a lot of them.
Some women sure were violently killed just because they refused to have intercourse with soldiers.
Sometimes, killing is more amusing than just raping i suppose.:mad:
The fact that there are 'this many' survivor now means that there were probably innormous number of them during WWII.

Not really, it depends on which army we're talking about. Like the Mongols (and other nomadic hordes), women were considered loot as well.

Well, if the leaders were sensible and if they had manners. I guess the army like mongolian one probably have done as you say.
 
Knight-Dragon said:

"Japan got this attitude fr the Chinese. For the Chinese, they view themselves as culturally superior to everyone else. This's still prevalent today."

This is very true. But if you think of it, it could just be seen as an extention of National Pride. But the "I'm better because I'm from the north" additude is just plain idiotic. If you know howto speak Chinese (Mandarin) then you would know that China is actually "Zhong-Goug" (correct me if I'm wrong) which litterally means "Middle Nation or Middle Kingdom".

While Australians are proud to be Aussie, we don't really see ourselves as being above others. While we may dislike the Yanks to an extent and think of the Kiwis as nothing but our outcasted sheep loving cousins, we don't totally look down on them, nor do we distrust them. Atleast not generally, there will always be elitists and dickheads in the world, it can't be helped. If it could be helped, then many wars would never have occured.
 
Originally posted by stationery2


No, no. They did kill the women after they 'used' them.
Think about that. What defeated army would wanna carry women who are seemingly useless with them? They can't fight, they consume food, and they slow down the march.
Even before the defeat of japan, they killed a lot of them.
Some women sure were violently killed just because they refused to have intercourse with soldiers.
Sometimes, killing is more amusing than just raping i suppose.:mad:
The fact that there are 'this many' survivor now means that there were probably innormous number of them during WWII.


There are cases of the murdering of comfort women, but they are not widespread. The comfort women were organized BY the army specifically to follow the units of soldiers around. In some ways it was seen as a more healthy, controlled way for the soldiers to release sexual tension. Part of the hope was that it would improve discipline during battle -- if youre raping some woman in a war zone, the enemy could catch you with your pants down.

The use of comfort women was also a price the conquered were expected to pay. When Japan was first occupied by the US, the conquered generals offered to organize troops of Japanese comfort women for the US to use.
 
Originally posted by Sabotage
This is very true. But if you think of it, it could just be seen as an extention of National Pride. But the "I'm better because I'm from the north" additude is just plain idiotic. If you know howto speak Chinese (Mandarin) then you would know that China is actually "Zhong-Goug" (correct me if I'm wrong) which litterally means "Middle Nation or Middle Kingdom".
Yes I do speak Mandarin (even understand a few dialects). :) Zhongguo actually means more like the Central State or the State in the Center (of the world).

China is big country and some regions (like the north) had been Chinese for much longer. Hence the I-am-more-Chinese-than-you attitude/mentality. ;) It's like the Roman empire had survived to today and then, you had the Italian Romans looking down on all the provincials just cos they're the original Roman homeland.

But that attitude is breaking down esp since Guangdong (in the deep south) being a powerful economy in its own right nowadays. Also the example of HK.
 
There are cases of the murdering of comfort women, but they are not widespread. The comfort women were organized BY the army specifically to follow the units of soldiers around. In some ways it was seen as a more healthy, controlled way for the soldiers to release sexual tension. Part of the hope was that it would improve discipline during battle -- if youre raping some woman in a war zone, the enemy could catch you with your pants down.

Your quote does not contradict what I said cephyn.
What you are sauing is about the pros of the comfort women.
I was saying that they did kill many women after using them.
 
"they killed a lot of them
Some women sure were violently killed just because they refused to have intercourse with soldiers.
Sometimes, killing is more amusing than just raping i suppose.
The fact that there are 'this many' survivor now means that there were probably innormous number of them during WWII."

Thats what you said. I'm saying it wasn't like that. First, the killing of comfort women did not happen "a lot"
There was not an "enormous" number of them during the war compared to after because they killed "a lot" of them.

While they may have killed women who refused to have sex with them, those were not "comfort women" -- they were women whom the Japanese soldiers were encouraged to rape as the spoils of war. (like in Nanjing) Killing of the comfort women was forbidden -- they were army property. It would be like a soldier going around and burning food rations or breaking weapons. Not a good idea, not sanctioned by the military, not a common occurrance.

If what i'm saying doesnt differ from what youre saying, its because youre not clearly differentiating "comfort women" from "women" in general.
 
Originally posted by akinkhoo
for the US to side with them.....
that truely sux!!! :rolleyes:

What do you mean by this? In my revisionist history books the US fought against the Japanese in WWII.
 
Originally posted by knowltok2
What do you mean by this? In my revisionist history books the US fought against the Japanese in WWII.
He meant after the war, when the Cold War came up. Then the Americans forgave all, and began to turn Japan into their Asian bastion.
 
Originally posted by Knight-Dragon
He meant after the war, when the Cold War came up. Then the Americans forgave all, and began to turn Japan into their Asian bastion.

That's "Realpolitik" for you. The Cold War began while the US was still occupying Japan. It was rather natural to turn it into our forward base in Asia. After the occupation ended, it was in the US best interest to continue a close relationship with Japan for the very same reason.
 
Originally posted by Knight-Dragon
He meant after the war, when the Cold War came up. Then the Americans forgave all, and began to turn Japan into their Asian bastion.

Okay. But I wouldn't say forgave all. There were Japanese war crimes trials, though not at a level to match the German ones.

As switch says, Realpolitik for you. Sad but true. Much was done during the cold war that would not have otherwise been done. :(
 
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