What makes the late game...

[Chandrasekhar]

I know I've pressed for this before, and Kael pretty much said that it's tough to fix, and I accept that explanation, but it should still be addressed. Take a look here and here. There are some noticeable differences between FfH's tech tree and that of vanilla Civ.

Vanilla Civ's late game techs have the following:
-Some powerful units
-A free specialist
-An apocalyptic project (and its counter)
-Several economic buildings
-Some economic wonders
-World map revelation
-A global bonus
-A builder victory condition
-The UN

FfH's late game tech tree has only these features:
-Many, many awesome and powerful units (lots of 'em, and did I say they're awesome? And powerful? Good.)
-World map revelation
-Avatars D)
-Several apocalyptic and beneficial rituals

Notably absent from FfH's late game tech tree are these:
-Free specialist (not that important, but might be nice)
-Economic buildings/wonders
-A victory condition


I'd like to set up a little brainstorming session here to see how to fill these holes. As things stand, late game techs are more or less useless for a peaceful Civ, contrasted with the quite useful mid and early game techs.

Designing a victory condition might be jumping the gun a bit here, so I'd prefer to (which in no way requires you to) focus on some sort of economic advantages. Let's think up some buildings (like broadcast tower, factory, etc.) and wonders (Three Gorges Dam, the UN) to start off. Also, techs that give global bonuses (like Genetics' +3 health) and improve improvements (like increasing workshop/windmill/mine output) are good as well.

Ideally, I'd like to see whatever bonuses and techs we come up with merged into existing techs and bonuses, so that we don't have some techs that give war chariots and the Mithril Golem and other techs that give +1 to workshops and a global +2 happy. After all, the tech tree is supposed to converge at the end, so maybe there will be techs where military and economic bonuses reunite.

But that's later. For now, let's brainstorm benefits, both those based off the ones in vanilla Civ and any completely unrelated ideas you all get.

 

[Jono]

I have to agree, the later eras are kinda dull (when you look at the tech tree)...

 

[Chandrasekhar]

Some ideas, respond, modify, spindle, staple, mutilate as you will:

Strength of Will tech gives +1 and/or +1 to mana nodes.

Another +1 movement bonus for roads to make up for lack of railroads.

Some sort of divine/arcane "meeting ground" similar to the UN? Doesn't necessarily have to allow a victory condition. Representation might be based on something completely novel, like number of arcane spellcasters, number of mana nodes, number of military units, number of cities of your religion, etc. The builder might be able to choose which criterion is used.

A tier 4 anti-magic unit? (I know I didn't say to make more units, but follow my example and break my rules. We'll be talking about Maxwell House coffee by the end of the week.)

A free specialist! (or two)

Very expensive national wonders that provide mana (to make the Tower of Mastery a bit more viable).

Less... self destructive apocalyptic rituals.

A ritual that makes all good and evil Civs at war with each other?

A tech that automatically gives a +50% bonus, no ritual required.

A tech that increases and/or in all cities without it?

A pure tech victory condition? (like 20 times the cost of Armageddon)

---

Reply to these, or make your own, or do both, whatever you please. Heck, even an out-of-ten rating for each of them would make me happy.

Edit: Wow, I don't think I mentioned a single building. Guess you guys are going to have to pick up the slack.

 

[QES]

Some ideas, respond, modify, spindle, staple, mutilate as you will:

Strength of Will tech gives +1 and/or +1 to mana nodes.

Another +1 movement bonus for roads to make up for lack of railroads.

Some sort of divine/arcane "meeting ground" similar to the UN? Doesn't necessarily have to allow a victory condition. Representation might be based on something completely novel, like number of arcane spellcasters, number of mana nodes, number of military units, number of cities of your religion, etc. The builder might be able to choose which criterion is used.

A tier 4 anti-magic unit? (I know I didn't say to make more units, but follow my example and break my rules. We'll be talking about Maxwell House coffee by the end of the week.)

A free specialist! (or two)

Very expensive national wonders that provide mana (to make the Tower of Mastery a bit more viable).

Less... self destructive apocalyptic rituals.

A ritual that makes all good and evil Civs at war with each other?

A tech that automatically gives a +50% bonus, no ritual required.

A tech that increases and/or in all cities without it?

A pure tech victory condition? (like 20 times the cost of Armageddon)

---

Reply to these, or make your own, or do both, whatever you please. Heck, even an out-of-ten rating for each of them would make me happy.

Edit: Wow, I don't think I mentioned a single building. Guess you guys are going to have to pick up the slack.

Beware of the "too much" approach. Plus (forgive me) i think there are otehr posts that have/are dealing with the end game. Its good to see a thread here though for its full idea discussion. As I am tired and Lazy I will leave it to you to find the "End game" ideas that are floating around...there was one thread on which i was discussing "ultimate-spells" for game ending sequences, but i cant rightly remember which one.
-Qes

 

[Chandrasekhar]

, but you know that because it says so in the post[/b]]Beware of the "too much" approach. Plus (forgive me) i think there are otehr posts that have/are dealing with the end game. Its good to see a thread here though for its full idea discussion. As I am tired and Lazy I will leave it to you to find the "End game" ideas that are floating around...there was one thread on which i was discussing "ultimate-spells" for game ending sequences, but i cant rightly remember which one.
-Qes

Bah, I'll know "too much" when I get there. Anyway, I think this issue is grave enough that it deserves a dedicated thread. The end game is arguably the most important, because that's when people do the winning (not always, but a lot of times).

I also prefer the philosophy, "If it's not in my immediate and obvious perception, then it's clearly not important that I see it."

 

[QES]

I also prefer the philosophy, "If it's not in my immediate and obvious perception, then it's clearly not important that I see it."

Remind me to throw a water balloon from behind you if we ever meet.
-Qes

 

[mervvyn]

Strength of Will tech gives +1 and/or +1 to mana nodes.
Another +1 movement bonus for roads to make up for lack of railroads.
A tier 4 anti-magic unit? (I know I didn't say to make more units, but follow my example and break my rules. We'll be talking about Maxwell House coffee by the end of the week.)
A free specialist! (or two)
Less... self destructive apocalyptic rituals.
A ritual that makes all good and evil Civs at war with each other?

i left the ones that i liked most. in particular i miss the lack of railroads - to be fair, it makes you plan some of the time, and you could use haste if you wanted but ultimately that leads to micromanagement in trying to get everyone somewhere. so yes, i would appreciate some help getting around. i can see someone pointing out the usefulness of the nexus though...

i'm interested as to what you mean by an antimagic unit - kind of like a mage assassin that can target arcane units, or one with lots of magic resistance, or something else entirely?

i like your suggestions with the rituals, although i can't really think of any ideas for less destructive rituals. the mana nodes one and genesis help in that regard to a degree, so maybe that's just something i'd like rather than something that would improve the gameplay much.

I really like the idea of increasing yield from mana nodes - alternatively, perhaps a building as an extension of the mage guild that gives extra hammers or beakers or gold or a % bonus to one of those for each mana resource in the city's radius (esp good for kuriotates i would guess).

i don't think a UN-like feature really fits with the flavour though, particularly with the idea of alignments.

i'll think on it, i quite like getting to the late-game to muck around with the stronger spells + units

 

[Sureshot]

one thing to make the end game better would be splitting up future techs

instead of 1 future tech adding 1 and 1 , it'd be nice if there were multiple future techs (with more falvourful names), like one that increased , one that increased , one that added +1 base xp to new units, all sorts of things like that.

 

[Maniac]

Builder mana/magic victory:

Build a Nexus for each type of mana. Double production cost if you have the mana type. You win if you have one of each Nexus.

Though the FfH team thinks it's too unoriginal because it resembles the space victory too much...
My reply: it's better than NOTHING!

 

[Sureshot]

Isn't that pretty much what the tower of masteries are?

 

[Maniac]

The problem with the Tower of Mastery victory is that it isn't a builder victory. Meaning that there's still only way to win the game: by conquest (especially when playing on smaller maps with fewer mana).

 

[Sureshot]

well a "minimum of 1 mana per civ" and initial 3 mana startup from palace and the wonder that adds mana around the world, and several wonders which give mana makes it more of a builder wonder if you ask me.

 

[vorshlumpf]

If one is looking for a way to increase movement in the later stages of the game, one could say that Haste becomes so common-place (at a certain tech) that all units get a permanent Haste promotion (perhaps limited to within their own borders - and the borders of allies).

- Niilo

 

[Sureshot]

can you automate that? i usually don't bother with haste cause i don't want them caste it all the time

 

[Kael]

One thing to start with. Vanilla and FfH are dramtically different design models. All the civs are the same (compared to FfH) in vanilla so applying bonuses in the late game applies to everyone and you dont need to worry abotu flavor, etc. To be able to distinguish the civs in FfH we had to divide up the features and divy them out to certain civs.

So when you talk about global bonus's (which we do sometimes to work on the "core game") think how it is aplied globably and if it would be better applied at the civ, religion or magic levels. It makes design more difficult but your ability to build your own empire from those 4 is the key to FfH.

Some ideas, respond, modify, spindle, staple, mutilate as you will:

Strength of Will tech gives +1 and/or +1 to mana nodes.

That could be an interesting idea. I pulled the commerce bonus's off of mana in 0.15. I couldnt find a way to balance it. But attaching it to a late game tech is a good solution.

Another +1 movement bonus for roads to make up for lack of railroads.

In my opinion, there is enough movement in the mod.

Some sort of divine/arcane "meeting ground" similar to the UN? Doesn't necessarily have to allow a victory condition. Representation might be based on something completely novel, like number of arcane spellcasters, number of mana nodes, number of military units, number of cities of your religion, etc. The builder might be able to choose which criterion is used.

Ive always wanted to being the UN back but I dont like its current incarnation. I want civs to be able to opt out of it and ignore the mandates but suffer enmity for doing so.

A tier 4 anti-magic unit? (I know I didn't say to make more units, but follow my example and break my rules. We'll be talking about Maxwell House coffee by the end of the week.)

Like the Nullstone Golem or the Dragons? This is probably one of those situations where a global unit is probably a bad idea. But it makes for good flavor of individual civs.

A free specialist! (or two)

I would rather civic options gave these than techs.

Very expensive national wonders that provide mana (to make the Tower of Mastery a bit more viable).

With each civ starting with 3 spheres the tower of mastery victory condition should be that much easier in 0.15. Fnctionally its as if everyone started with 2 of the national wonders you described.

Less... self destructive apocalyptic rituals.

Making the armaggedon spells more cohesive and function is the central theme of "Fire".

A ritual that makes all good and evil Civs at war with each other?

The War Script in "Fire" wont be this simple but will cause leaders to make intellegent decisions about when to go to war and make for a more interesting late game. Especially since they will conspire together to gang up on other targets.

A tech that automatically gives a +50% bonus, no ritual required.

A tech that increases and/or in all cities without it?

I dont know that these are fun. I would rather allow the player to build things that did this kind of stuff rather than just have a tech boost it. It seems so detached.

A pure tech victory condition? (like 20 times the cost of Armageddon)

I always found "you have researched X tech, you win" to be unsatisfying. I would rather have global techs/projects that did something. Even if that something is dumping a barbarian balor on the map for every enemy unit that exists and making you allies with the barbarians. Functionally you still researched a tech, or built whatever building creates the balors, but its so much more interesting and memorible than just a popup saying you won.

I know you offered the vanilla mechanics ars a starting point. But what I am really interested in are really creative late game ideas. Not a vote win, not a science win, not a project win. Or at least not just renamed versions of those things. What new ways are there?

 

[Mahatmajon]

I know you offered the vanilla mechanics ars a starting point. But what I am really interested in are really creative late game ideas. Not a vote win, not a science win, not a project win. Or at least not just renamed versions of those things. What new ways are there?

I'd like to see some additional 'religous evolution'. More specifically I think it would be cool if religions had additional features added in different eras, or X number of years after founding, etc. These also might not all be bonuses but just changes to the revolution along the way.

For example, maybe a religion would gain extra +1 or +1 in each city in a new age. This could be a balance with some early 'builder religions' changing into 'attacking religions'.

Alternatively if Civics could change in different eras that would also be a very cool way of doing this...like a late game tech that 'Adds +2 & +1 to the Agriculture Civic. I agree with you and prefer when decisions are based on civic decisions or directions in the tech tree instead of making obvious 'power' techs to consistently go for (like vanilla Bronze Working, Civil Service, Liberalism)

EDIT: Just to clarify, the 'religious evolution' would not be the same for all religions and would be quite different. This may lead to changing strategies or having to re-establish a new religion better suited to your goals/needs in the late game.

 

[Xuenay]

I dont know that these are fun. I would rather allow the player to build things that did this kind of stuff rather than just have a tech boost it. It seems so detached.

Actually, for some of us it's fun exactly because you only need to research the tech. I very much like the thought of only having to get a tech and then get a global boost all across my empire, making more powerful without needing to do anything. It makes researching the technology fun.

Also, things like a +50% boost to GPP is good because it enhances the stuff you've done already. I know I loved the way in Vanilla how my farms suddenly all become a step more powerful with the invention of Biology, helping the cities all at once grow a lot bigger.

Of course, that's not to say that the majority of the late-game builder thingies shouldn't be buildings or civics - they should. But it's fun to have the occasional freebie boost, too.

And yeah, I agree that the late game needs more builder benefits. It might be good to start by looking at the tech tree and try to come up with technologies that could use a benefit (and what might be suitable for them) - I'll do that in a moment and see if I can come up with anything.

 

[Chandrasekhar]

Like the Nullstone Golem or the Dragons? This is probably one of those situations where a global unit is probably a bad idea. But it makes for good flavor of individual civs.

I guess I was thinking of a national unit (3 allowed) that would preferably be placed in stacks to take fireballs and such. My heart diffinitely isn't set on it.

I would rather civic options gave [free specialists] than techs.

Ah, silly me, I mis-worded it. I meant free great people, like from Fusion or Physics in vanilla Civ.

Making the armaggedon spells more cohesive and function is the central theme of "Fire".

I guess I was thinking along the lines of making the really destructive ones have less of an impact on the builder, or even allowing a counter-ritual that could be built to protect whoever built it.

I dont know that these are fun. I would rather allow the player to build things that did this kind of stuff rather than just have a tech boost it. It seems so detached.

Well, I know they were fun in vanilla Civ. Two different games, yes, but they both work on the same principles. I, for one, wouldn't mind it.

Actually, for some of us it's fun exactly because you only need to research the tech. I very much like the thought of only having to get a tech and then get a global boost all across my empire, making more powerful without needing to do anything. It makes researching the technology fun.

Same for this guy.

Also, things like a +50% boost to GPP is good because it enhances the stuff you've done already. I know I loved the way in Vanilla how my farms suddenly all become a step more powerful with the invention of Biology, helping the cities all at once grow a lot bigger.

And this guy, too.

I always found "you have researched X tech, you win" to be unsatisfying. I would rather have global techs/projects that did something. Even if that something is dumping a barbarian balor on the map for every enemy unit that exists and making you allies with the barbarians. Functionally you still researched a tech, or built whatever building creates the balors, but its so much more interesting and memorible than just a popup saying you won.

No, you misunderstand me. It wouldn't just be "Hey, this tech will make me win, let's do it." or "I'm just going to gear my whole strategy towards tech'ing up, and all else be damned." This tech would take perhaps 150-200 turns to research, and I'm thinking that there might be some sort of global notification when a Civ started researching it (with the appropriate diplomacy modifiers). It would be suspensful, as you'd be watching a countdown timer tick down in your research bar, trying to reach the end first. Further, it would take long enough that other strategies would be viable for other Civs, like warring on the researching Civ, or trying to fufill some other victory condition. If you really wanted to link it to some other in-game effect, you could, but I think this would work just as well. Additionally, it would be a victory that the AI could get.

I really wouldn't even mind if this was just a placeholder until you and the rest of the team got around to working more on the late game/other victory conditions. But it would be nice if there was something the AI could go for until then.

Builder mana/magic victory:

Build a Nexus for each type of mana. Double production cost if you have the mana type. You win if you have one of each Nexus.

Though the FfH team thinks it's too unoriginal because it resembles the space victory too much...
My reply: it's better than NOTHING!

I didn't know I had an ally in you, M@ni@c.

Just because something resembles something from vanilla Civ doesn't mean it's a bad idea. As well say that the concept of production from working tiles is too unoriginal, so we should just do it by population. I'd say that a nexus idea would be good, but make it so that it's something like five times production with the mana type. We'd want to make it so that if you have 10 diffferent types of mana, this victory would be a joke to win. Again, it would be something for the AI to go for, too. I'd like this more than the Tower of Mastery, which is, in my opinion, just a toned-down domination victory.

Of course, the new mana system with the next patch might prove me wrong, but I remain unconvinced at the moment.

Are there any other ideas out there? This thread currently feels more like a review for my ideas, not a sounding board for others' like it should be...

 

[dreiche2]

Hm, I don't see how some bonuses make the late game significantly more fun...

 

[QES]

Hm, I don't see how some bonuses make the late game significantly more fun...

Agreed.
-Qes