What really is a Chinese Crouching Tiger? (Mod Potential)

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

What really is a Chinese Crouching Tiger (虎蹲砲)?

In game it is Chinese UU, short ranged unit (1 hex away) available in Medievla Era (Machinery tech), but stronger.
In truth it began as a type of so many types of Chinese Traction Trebuchet (Their stands-ins for 'Catapults', Chinese never invented Torsion Catapults), with gunpowder, it became a type of man portable cannon.
Is it actually field artillery or siege artillery?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hu_dun_pao
https://civilization.fandom.com/wiki/Trebuchet_(Civ6) -- This civilopedia is well written which cited that Crouching Tiger began as a type of catapult (砲 originally means 'catapult' but later means 'cannon')
https://civilization.fandom.com/wiki/Crouching_Tiger_(Civ6) I don't know who wrote Crouching Tiger Cannon civilopedia? it has in game range of 1 but in Imjin War (Japanese Invasion of Korea), Ming army did use ones that outranged many weapons including crossbows.

Is it okay that Crouching Tiger to be Chinese 'stand ins' for Trebuchet with a range of 2 ? As per Asian siege tactics emphasis on neutralizing defenders and breaching city gates rather than breaking the wall open.

 

[Pietato]

Range in this game is messed up. A slinger has more range than a tank.

 

[Leah and Rachael]

Range in this game is messed up. A slinger has more range than a tank.

To be fair, the relative range of slingers Vs. other units of the era does compare to the range of a tank and, say, a bomber.

Besides, there aren't really any 'melee' units in today's world. It's more of a gameplay mechanic than an historic one

 

[Pietato]

To be fair, the relative range of slingers Vs. other units of the era does compare to the range of a tank and, say, a bomber.

Besides, there aren't really any 'melee' units in today's world. It's more of a gameplay mechanic than an historic one

Well, yeah it is obviously a gameplay mechanic...

Also there is no 'relative' range in this game, because a slinger actually has physically more range than a tank, as in they can fight each other and show this.

 

[Dedrytus]

You mean Agateans Barking Dog?

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

If 'range' is what F'xis messed up this time.
What actually was a function of Crouching Tiger Cannons? Fieldguns or Siege weapons by Asian Definitions?

 

[Leah and Rachael]

Well, yeah it is obviously a gameplay mechanic...

Also there is no 'relative' range in this game, because a slinger actually has physically more range than a tank, as in they can fight each other and show this.

I said the range of a slinger to other units of the same period... compared to the range of a tank with the units of the same period.

How far a historical slinger could hit compared to an archer's range is WAY better than how far a tank can hit compared to a long range bomber.

If a tank is to be made a ranged unit, then ICBMs should hit anywhere on the map

 

[Uberfrog]

If 'range' is what F'xis messed up this time.
What actually was a function of Crouching Tiger Cannons? Fieldguns or Siege weapons by Asian Definitions?

I am by no means an expert in Chinese gunpowder weapons, but I think cannons during the Ming dynasty were primarily defensive weapons.

As you mention above Chinese cannons were not really used to breach walls. Chinese wall construction was quite different from that used in the Middle East and Europe. Walls were very thick, made of rammed Earth, and had sloping sides. All of these features meant bombardment with cannon was generally ineffective. Such cannon as were used would have been focussed on the defenders or trying to breach the gates.

I think Civ 6’s depiction as a field gun is reasonable. It is best used either as a city garrison or positioned on the Great Wall, which is accurate to how they were used. The 1 range is a little strange, but presumably exists mostly to balance its increased power against the crossbow it replaces. It is also a little strange that the Chinese do not get to build Crossbows, as they of course used them widely.

Perhaps it would be better as an early replacement for the Field Cannon, but this is exactly what the Korean Hwacha is.

Alternatively it could be a replacement for the Bombard with 2 range and an anti-personnel focus rather than siege. This way however, the Chinese would be nerfed vs cities during the Renaissance.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I think Civ 6’s depiction as a field gun is reasonable. It is best used either as a city garrison or positioned on the Great Wall, which is accurate to how they were used. The 1 range is a little strange, but presumably exists mostly to balance its increased power against the crossbow it replaces. It is also a little strange that the Chinese do not get to build Crossbows, as they of course used them widely.

Perhaps it would be better as an early replacement for the Field Cannon, but this is exactly what the Korean Hwacha is.

Alternatively it could be a replacement for the Bombard with 2 range and an anti-personnel focus rather than siege. This way however, the Chinese would be nerfed vs cities during the Renaissance.

I don't think the Crouching Tiger replaces anything. You could always build both crossbowmen and Crouching Tiger cannons before. At least I don't think they changed anything regarding them in the April patch?

 

[Uberfrog]

I don't think the Crouching Tiger replaces anything. You could always build both crossbowmen and Crouching Tiger cannons before. At least I don't think they changed anything regarding them in the April patch?

You’re right. They just unlock with the same tech.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

I am by no means an expert in Chinese gunpowder weapons, but I think cannons during the Ming dynasty were primarily defensive weapons.

As you mention above Chinese cannons were not really used to breach walls. Chinese wall construction was quite different from that used in the Middle East and Europe. Walls were very thick, made of rammed Earth, and had sloping sides. All of these features meant bombardment with cannon was generally ineffective. Such cannon as were used would have been focussed on the defenders or trying to breach the gates.

I think Civ 6’s depiction as a field gun is reasonable. It is best used either as a city garrison or positioned on the Great Wall, which is accurate to how they were used. The 1 range is a little strange, but presumably exists mostly to balance its increased power against the crossbow it replaces. It is also a little strange that the Chinese do not get to build Crossbows, as they of course used them widely.

Perhaps it would be better as an early replacement for the Field Cannon, but this is exactly what the Korean Hwacha is.

Alternatively it could be a replacement for the Bombard with 2 range and an anti-personnel focus rather than siege. This way however, the Chinese would be nerfed vs cities during the Renaissance.

So far. Chinese CAN train crossbowmen alongside Crouching Tigers. Both units coexisted (which in the end upgraded to the same unit)

 

[Linklite]

So, if Chinese have their UU on the ranged line that unlocks at the same time as crossbowmen and upgrades to the same unit, which do archers upgrade into? When I played as China, I hadn't very peaceful time, spending it building Wonders not armies, so I never noticed this.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

So, if Chinese have their UU on the ranged line that unlocks at the same time as crossbowmen and upgrades to the same unit, which do archers upgrade into? When I played as China, I hadn't very peaceful time, spending it building Wonders not armies, so I never noticed this.

Archers upgrade into Crossbowmen. Crouching Tigers have to be built/bought outright and can't be upgraded into. Both Crossbowmen and Crouching Tigers can upgrade into Field Cannons.

 

[Pietato]

I said the range of a slinger to other units of the same period... compared to the range of a tank with the units of the same period.

How far a historical slinger could hit compared to an archer's range is WAY better than how far a tank can hit compared to a long range bomber.

If a tank is to be made a ranged unit, then ICBMs should hit anywhere on the map

I know you said that...

It is still wrong, though, because that is not how the game literally works. A slinger and a tank can face off, with the slinger having more range.

 

[Leah and Rachael]

It is still wrong, though, because that is not how the game literally works. A slinger and a tank can face off, with the slinger having more range.

What does this have to do with my point?

The game scales units according to the strengths of the units around them - those an era or so to them. It doesn't do that on an absolute basis. Doing so would cause chaos that would make the entire concept unplayable.

I'm sorry that you cannot get over a slinger having more range than a tank. It doesn't really affect gameplay at all. Even with more range, there's no way a slinger can do anything to a tank. And given that the slinger has to be adjacent to a tank to even attack it, it isn't even a contest.

I don't know what the point of your comment is

 

[Pietato]

What does this have to do with my point?

The game scales units according to the strengths of the units around them - those an era or so to them. It doesn't do that on an absolute basis. Doing so would cause chaos that would make the entire concept unplayable.

I'm sorry that you cannot get over a slinger having more range than a tank. It doesn't really affect gameplay at all. Even with more range, there's no way a slinger can do anything to a tank. And given that the slinger has to be adjacent to a tank to even attack it, it isn't even a contest.

I don't know what the point of your comment is

My point was that range in this game has little relation to actual real life range, so is argument is better aimed towards filling a gap or buffing a crappy unit.

Your point was...well, pointless. You will often have units from multiple eras together, and their range stays exactly the same. There is no relative range, as that barbarian infantry who was just shot to death by Maori archers in my game just discovered.

 

[Zaarin]

Depending on your interpretation, it's a character played by Zhang Ziyi, Cheng Pei-pei, Michelle Yeoh, or all of the above.

 

[Pietato]

Depending on your interpretation, it's a character played by Zhang Ziyi, Cheng Pei-pei, Michelle Yeoh, or all of the above.

So Chow Yun-fat is the only dragon?

 

[Zaarin]

So Chow Yun-fat is the only dragon?

Apparently?

 

[shaglio]

So Chow Yun-fat is the only dragon?

You don't know because he's hidden.