What should a Deputy do?

[Cyc]

ok, Shaitan. I'll direct my comments towards you. Not that it makes a difference. It's still the same principle. You're both Leaders (two of the most powerful 3), you both vote the same, etc. This is railroading, no matter who posts "the poll".

 

[Zur]

While I can see the argument in favour of this I disagree. I don't think that departments should have to get the approval of the majority of the council before making emergency changes of policy. Also, what criteria would the council be voting to? Would the decision to allow a change be based on whether they think it's the right thing to do, or whether they think the department leader would think it was the right thing to do? I say leave it up to individual judgment, let the deputy justify his actions with a good explaination to his leader and face the consequences for any abuse of power.

Voting what they think the department leader would do does not work in all circumstances since they may not know him/her well enough to vote conscientiously in a new cabinet. Isn't voting (in a cabinet sense) supposed to express departmental opinion? Then they should vote according to how their department feels about it. (Extend "department" to "province" for governors & "all citizens" for Members-at-Large.)

Your option is interesting, but I'm not clear what you are proposing. "Face the consequences", to whom? The leader only, the cabinet, all citizens? If you could think of a practical way to implement it, it would certainly be a viable way.

 

[Shaitan]

Originally posted by Cyc
ok, Shaitan. I'll direct my comments towards you. Not that it makes a difference. It's still the same principle. You're both Leaders (two of the most powerful 3), you both vote the same, etc. This is railroading, no matter who posts "the poll".

Then let's agree to disagree. I think this poll is a perfectly valid method to invite opinion and discussion from the citizens. You don't. No need to dwell on it.

Now, back to the topic of the thread - You seem to favor the Deputy as a fill-in for the Leader as opposed to a Leader that gets occasional control. Is this so?

 

[Cyc]

No, you got wrong again Shaitan. you've taken my post and innocently twisted it to suite your needs. how thoughtful.

 

[Shaitan]

Originally posted by Cyc
No, you got wrong again Shaitan. you've taken my post and innocently twisted it to suite your needs. how thoughtful.

I had started a post to refute this. I even had the quote from Cyc's first post where he said exactly what I thought he had said. Then I realized that this entire conversation was WAY too reminicent of the troll assaults that drove me off of usenet many years ago. In the interest of keeping this Forum a place that I'd like to be I'm going to drop this whole line and ignore future references to it.

 

[eyrei]

This is absurd. Talk of a government conspiracy and railroading issues, when a poll was posted? Isn't that exactly the opposite? The people will decide on this issue, and their wishes will be followed.

The reason this poll was posted was, I believe, to clear up an issue that had arisen so that it doesn't arise again. There has been no talk of impeachment throughout this entire discussion (both threads) by myself or Shaitan. I, in fact, stated earlier that I did not consider donsig's actions impeachable. I do not wish to continue discussion of that particular instance. The only reason I even continue posting on this topic is because it needs to be clarified and resolved. I would much rather put it to rest.

The accusations of government conspiracy and such are baseless, and therefore have no place here without proof. This is the place for discussion about the powers of a deputy leader during the absence of the leader. Let's keep it that way.

 

[Duke of Marlbrough]

This 'discussion' has gotten out of hand for the topic it was intended to discuss.

It brings up a valid issue that sounds like it should be discussed. IMHO, the simple fact that this thread is in the 'Citizens' forum makes it where it is not trying to be 'pushed' through. It seems to be trying to let everyone give their opinion; which is the point of the game.

If this thread gets into direct attacks against another person(s), it will be closed and people may be given 'time off' to think about it.

If anybody has direct issues they need discussed with another player, PM them or me.

 

[donsig]

Originally posted by Duke of Marlbrough
If anybody has direct issues they need discussed with another player, PM them or me.

First of all I want everyone to know that I have not been offended at all by anyone's posts and I have not meant to offend anyone in any of mine. If I have then I offer my apologies. I do think this debate should be held in the public view though.

Though I have not been offended by any posts there have been accusations regarding me and I have been answering them. Somehow the debate on my specific actions during two turn chats has turned into this general poll.

The debate originated here concerning gubernatorial powers.

The specific debate out my actions started here.

The May 10 and 12 chat logs are here.

The May 10 turn instructions thread is here.

The May 12 turn instructions are here.

The presidential thread is here.

As far as I know these are the links pertaining to this discussion.

 

[Duke of Marlbrough]

Originally posted by donsig
I do think this debate should be held in the public view though.

I very much agree, that is why the thread is still open.

What I meant for PMing people or myself is to avoid any personal attacks in the forums, not to hide the discussion.

 

[donsig]

Originally posted by Duke of Marlbrough
This 'discussion' has gotten out of hand for the topic it was intended to discuss.

This poll was initiated by Shaitan as a result of a debate between eyrei and myself concerning Eyr building pikemen. (I've posted all the relevant links in the post right before this one so I'm not making links in this post. ) The debate over the build evolved into one about 'what should deputies do'.

If the posts are read it should be clear that I have been saying all along that I re-evaluated the build in Eyr in light of a request by the military leader. I made a judgement call that happened to go against what eyrei wanted. I tried to explain the circumstances and my reasoning. Rather than address what actually happened this general poll was posted. This poll implies that I changed eyrei's build queue simply because I disagree with his policies. That is an implication I must respond to.

I must also defend Cyc for bringing up the railroading issue. Shaitan posted this poll without even reading the turn chat logs to see what the debate was really about.
This is an important issue because I feel as though deputies are about to be hamstrung merely because I excerised my judgement.

 

[Cyc]

And that is a very poorly worded poll. Not your usual style and finesse, Shaitan. Sorry for the soapbox, but someone has to protect the rights of the citizenry.

 

[Cyc]

And BTW, most of the real cause of the problem here has been in discussion in the main forum under the sticky "sub-forum discusion" or something like that. been going on for days. If each leader posts in there "Next Turn" thread, this won't be a problem. Governors can still just post in their Province thread.

 

[Duke of Marlbrough]

Granted, I don't know that a poll is appropriate at this time, but how else are we to see what everyone thinks of this issue?

If this were a discussion about donsigs actions, then I don't think a poll would be appropriate.

However, it seems that this is a poll to try and clearly define the roles in the game so as to try and avoid disagreements like this again. It doesn't require any real background of the prior happenings to have an opinion of what the roles of Deputies should be. If the majority of people agree on a choice, then that is the nature of the game.

My opinion of the whole situation is that the Gov. ideas should be used as a 'guideline'. Unless something drastic comes up, they should be followed for the most part. If the defense minister wanted to get more pikemen built, then he should have worked with the Governors to get that done, it should not be a fairly exclusive decision by a few people as to where to build them. However, since the province queues were not known of, the acting parties did what they felt was best without having direction otherwise.

What was done in the past does not seem like it is anything worth pursuing further. However, it shoud be decided what actions should be followed in the future to try and avoid it in the future.

So, it seems we have a couple of issues that need clarification:

Where/When are provinces queues to be posted?

Are deputies responsible to basically follow the queues, or make their own decisions? This would largely depend on an underlying question; how are the queues decided upon? If they are decided by the Governor (basically) alone, then it is more of an arbitrary thing. If the people have given their consent to the queue, then it should try to be attempted to be followed (unless an emergency happens).

If the people agree on what the role of deputies should be, then I don't really see how it is 'railroading' the issue.

BTW, thank you for the links, donsig. It made it much easier to try and get an idea of what's going on.

 

[donsig]

originally post by the Duke of Marlbrough

Granted, I don't know that a poll is appropriate at this time, but how else are we to see what everyone thinks of this issue?

My point is that everyone agrees that deputies should follow the leader's lead. Even I agree to that. We do not need a poll to figure that out. We also don't need a poll to figure out that deputies should be allowed to change things under certain circumstances. The whole arguement is about where that line is. This poll will not help us determine where that line is and I fear it will only hamstring a deputy's authority in the future.

Since I feel this is all about where that line is then the actions that triggered the debate are certainly relevant.

The poll should be about whether the line was crossed or not.

 

[donsig]

Originally posted by Duke of Marlbrough
My opinion of the whole situation is that the Gov. ideas should be used as a 'guideline'. Unless something drastic comes up, they should be followed for the most part.

I must disagree with this interpretation. The constitution states that governors control the build queues in their provinces. (Section F.)

There are constitutional methods in place for overturning governor's choices. I think these are pretty much agreed upon as this was the subject of the debate that eventually led to the deputy debate. Treating governor's ideas as guidelines undermines all the work put into defining the role of governors. It would be a shame to do this right now since the governors' have just begun their work. (This remark is not intended as a slight to eyrei who has worked as a governor all along.)
By letting the governors do their job the turn chat should be speeded up because the debates about what should be built in our cities will be done in the forums rather than the turn chats.

 

[Shaitan]

Originally posted by donsig


I must disagree with this interpretation. The constitution states that governors control the build queues in their provinces. (Section F.)

I absolutely agree with Donsig here. There are only 3 ways a Governor can be overruled on his build decisions - when we're being invaded the Military Leader can build military buildings/units, the Cultural Leader can build cultural buildings when needed and the Pres can call a Council Vote to get his/her improvement built. Other than those the Governor's decision is sacrosanct, that's why it's such a powerful position.

 

[Duke of Marlbrough]

Originally posted by donsig
The poll should be about whether the line was crossed or not.

How can it be about whether the line was crossed or not, when there is no line yet? The prior happenings seem to be just an unfortunate mis-communication.

How would we establish where the line is then?

Section F: Governors and Provinces

Article 1: A governor controls the production (building queues) of the cities within a province. A governor's production decision can be overturned by a council vote or by the Military Leader during time of invasion.

I don't see how that is really so different from my opinion (which doesn't really count for much). Unless you're saying that they should be followed to the letter (with changes being possible as explained in the constitution) rather than just generally....?

Is that correct?

 

[Shaitan]

Originally posted by Duke of Marlbrough
I don't see how that is really so different from my opinion (which doesn't really count for much). Unless you're saying that they should be followed to the letter (with changes being possible as explained in the constitution) rather than just generally....?

Is that correct?

Yup, that's it Duke. I think the Governors' decisions should be final except in those specific instances where the Constitution gives another official the power to overrule them.

 

[Eklektikos]

Originally posted by Shaitan

Yup, that's it Duke. I think the Governors' decisions should be final except in those specific instances where the Constitution gives another official the power to overrule them.

That I'm with Shaitan on this goes without saying

 

[donsig]

Another 'yes' Duke. We debated that one through to general agreement.

I fear the deputy debate will not end in such agreement since there are too many grey areas.