What should a Deputy do?

[Shaitan]

Originally posted by eyrei
...plus making it clear that should any governor not post build queues, it is the responsibility of the domestic leader, or the deputy domestic leader to designate these...

This currently falls under the Pres/Designated Player. Does it really need to be reassigned? There's always going to be a DP in every chat, that's not necessarily so for any individual department.

 

[eyrei]

Originally posted by Shaitan

This currently falls under the Pres/Designated Player. Does it really need to be reassigned? There's always going to be a DP in every chat, that's not necessarily so for any individual department.

Ah. I had missed that. I always assumed it fell within the domestic department.

 

[donsig]

Originally posted by Eklektikos
I don't think that departments should have to get the approval of the majority of the council before making emergency changes of policy. Also, what criteria would the council be voting to? Would the decision to allow a change be based on whether they think it's the right thing to do, or whether they think the department leader would think it was the right thing to do? I say leave it up to individual judgment, let the deputy justify his actions with a good explaination to his leader and face the consequences for any abuse of power.

These are some of the wisest words in this thread. We must put our trust in our leaders to lead and in our deputies to do the 'right' thing when the leader is absent. We are heading into the first turn chat where we have build queues in place. I don't think we should change the system until we see if it actually works.

originally posted by Shaitan:

This could be fixed easily by making the Governor aspect of the Domestic Department separate from the other duties. In other words, the Domestic Deputy is not the Deputy Governor of the capital province. This puts the Domestic Leader's build cues into the same boat as the other governors - it would require a Council Vote initiated by the Pres (Designated Player) to override them.

I think being governor of the capitol province is an integral part of the domestic leader's job and I don't think it is appropriate to have a deputy who is really only deputy to part of the leader's duties. Since the domestic leader / governor of the first province is also the default governor of new provinces it seems inefficient to say the deputy domestic leader does not have gubernatorial powers in the domestic leader's absence.

 

[Shaitan]

Originally posted by donsig
I think being governor of the capitol province is an integral part of the domestic leader's job and I don't think it is appropriate to have a deputy who is really only deputy to part of the leader's duties. Since the domestic leader / governor of the first province is also the default governor of new provinces it seems inefficient to say the deputy domestic leader does not have gubernatorial powers in the domestic leader's absence.

I have always seen this as the Domestic Leader wearing two hats with a gubernatorial position in addition to the Domestic responsibilities.

 

[eyrei]

Originally posted by donsig





I think being governor of the capitol province is an integral part of the domestic leader's job and I don't think it is appropriate to have a deputy who is really only deputy to part of the leader's duties. Since the domestic leader / governor of the first province is also the default governor of new provinces it seems inefficient to say the deputy domestic leader does not have gubernatorial powers in the domestic leader's absence.

It also seems almost silly to have a deputy governor for the first province, when there are none for the other provinces. That seems to imply that the domestic leader will be a less competent governor than any of the others. The constitution could be interpreted either way. It says that the domestic leader is also the governor of the first province. It could be said that the person who is domestic leader is also the governor of the first province. It is not necessarily a function of the domestic department. Since it is not necessary for any other governor to have a deputy, this is the way I think it should be interpreted.

 

[donsig]

Originally posted by Shaitan
Okay, let's back up a step. We need to answer a different question first.

Is a Deputy only allowed to overrule the Leader's plan when it's an emergency or should they be able to exercise their own discretion for all in-game occurences? My example above wasn't an emergency but just about everybody would agree (with no other information provided such as appeasing China) that the Deputy's desire for a change of plan is justified and proper. Should changes like this be allowed?

In clear emergencies it is obvious that the deputy can over-ride the leader. In common sense examples as Shaitain used it is also obvious that the deputy can use his or her initiative. These are the black and white of the issue at hand not the grey.

Eyrei says a deputy should have a very good reason to change a build queue. This is the grey area. I think I had a good reason to keep Eyr building pikemen while eyrei thinks I did not have a good reason. I do not think we can list all the 'good reasons', let alone agree on what they are, so we must leave room for deputies to make judgements.

I suggest those interested in this debate to review the May 10 turn chat log. The question of building harbors came up. That is another case of me stepping in as acting governor and exercising judgement. It also falls into the grey area.

I understand there have been calls to leave the past in the past but I really think it would be more productive to examine grey areas that have actually come up rather than hypothetical one.

 

[Eklektikos]

Originally posted by eyrei


It also seems almost silly to have a deputy governor for the first province, when there are none for the other provinces. That seems to imply that the domestic leader will be a less competent governor than any of the others. The constitution could be interpreted either way. It says that the domestic leader is also the governor of the first province. It could be said that the person who is domestic leader is also the governor of the first province. It is not necessarily a function of the domestic department. Since it is not necessary for any other governor to have a deputy, this is the way I think it should be interpreted.

Question: Why was the governorship of the first province attached to the role of domestic leader in the first place? I'd be interested to know what the original rationale for this was, since I don't really understand why things are organised in this way.

 

[eyrei]

Originally posted by Eklektikos

Question: Why was the governorship of the first province attached to the role of domestic leader in the first place? I'd be interested to know what the original rationale for this was, since I don't really understand why things are organised in this way.

Only the Duke of Marlborough or the Duck of Flanders would truly be able to answer that. I imagine it had to do with cohesiveness in the beginning of the game. While the country is still small, it is quite possible and more efficient for one person to control all of the domestic department responsibilities as well as the build queues. If you had a domestic leader and a governor of all of the cities, who disagreed on everything, the expansion of the empire would flounder. It also allows the domestic leader to lead by example for the other governors as the game progresses. Further, as the domestic department is in charge of wonder building, it gives the department choice cities to build wonders.

 

[eyrei]

Originally posted by donsig




Eyrei says a deputy should have a very good reason to change a build queue. This is the grey area. I think I had a good reason to keep Eyr building pikemen while eyrei thinks I did not have a good reason. I do not think we can list all the 'good reasons', let alone agree on what they are, so we must leave room for deputies to make judgements.

Actually, I was referring to any deputy changing a leaders instructions, not to build queues. I consider these an entirely different matter. They should only be changed following the instructions set out in the constitution.

 

[donsig]

Originally posted by eyrei
Actually, I was referring to any deputy changing a leaders instructions, not to build queues. I consider these an entirely different matter. They should only be changed following the instructions set out in the constitution.

Then we are back where the Duke left uswhen he said:

Like donsig said, the real question seems to be; is the deputy Domestic Leader also the deputy governor of the first province?

Shaitan and eyrei have answered 'no' and I have answered 'yes'.

Eklektikos has asked for more input and we hope the Duck or Duke will provide it.

 

[donsig]

Originally posted by eyrei
Only the Duke of Marlborough or the Duck of Flanders would truly be able to answer that. I imagine it had to do with cohesiveness in the beginning of the game. While the country is still small, it is quite possible and more efficient for one person to control all of the domestic department responsibilities as well as the build queues. If you had a domestic leader and a governor of all of the cities, who disagreed on everything, the expansion of the empire would flounder. It also allows the domestic leader to lead by example for the other governors as the game progresses. Further, as the domestic department is in charge of wonder building, it gives the department choice cities to build wonders.

Sure sounds like an integral part of the domestic leader's job to me.

 

[Shaitan]

We've broken down into 3 issues.

1. Should the Domestic Department control the governance of the Capital Province?
2. Is the Deputy Domestic Leader also the Deputy Governor of the Capital Province?
3. When is a Deputy allowed to override a Leader's plans?
   [/list=1]
   
   There's also the briefly raised question of what the limits of Cultural override on building queues should be.
   
   Question 1 has a 50% chance of answering question 2.
   
   Question 3 is a massive grey area that we are no closer to answering now than we were yesterday when this all started.
   
   I propose the following:
   Poll for questions 1 and 2 (separately but referencing each other).
   Continue trying to figure out #3.
   Start a discussion on the Cultural override.
   
   I'm also going to go ahead and post the Constitutional Amendment Proposal. I was going to wait until we had a concensus here to wrap this in as well but I think this may need a goodly amount of time.

 

[donsig]

I just put another pot of coffee on.

Shaitan, what amendment are you talking about? I didn't know one was in the works...

Also, I propose you post in this thread what your proposed poll questions and options are for your proposed polls on questions one and two? Hey, that's a triple 'propose' sentence!

 

[Eklektikos]

Originally posted by Shaitan
We've broken down into 3 issues.

1. Should the Domestic Department control the governance of the Capital Province?
2. Is the Deputy Domestic Leader also the Deputy Governor of the Capital Province?
3. When is a Deputy allowed to override a Leader's plans?
   [/list=1]
   
   I propose the following:
   Poll for questions 1 and 2 (separately but referencing each other).
   Continue trying to figure out #3.
   Start a discussion on the Cultural override.

1. 
   I suggest that these polls be phrased as follows -
   
   Should the Capital province:
   • be governed under the current system?
   • Have a specifically elected governor, like the other provinces?
     [/list=a]
     
     Is the Capital Province:
     • governed by the Domestic Leader?
     • governed by the Domestic Department?
       [/list=a]

 

[Duke of Marlbrough]

My understanding is:
1. The Domestic Leader is the governor of the first province for the reasons that you guys have already stated (ease of starting the game). I'll PM DOF and ask him to confirm this since this whole game is his brain child.

2. As far as changing build queues for Governors, I think the constitution spells out the basic elements that allow this. They may need to be refined, but it is fairly clear that certain conditions need to be present for any changes to happen. I don't know if the Deputy Domestic Leader should also be considered the Deputy Governor of the first province. No other Governor has a Deputy and there are already proceedures in place for when a Governor is not present in the chat and has no posted build queue.

3. I think Deputies should use the Leaders plans as a general guideline and can make adjustments to them if a need arises. I would also hope that the Leader and Deputy would have discussed the reasons behind the decisions so that they both are on the same page. Using the earlier example, if the Leaders intent is to improve relations with China, and not to get the most money for the trade, the Deputy needs to be aware of that. That would preclude the Deputy from assuming that he should go for whichever option provides the most money and do the trade for the reasons intended.

Remember, these are just my thoughts. I am not making a ruling or anything, since I have no power to change the game on my own.

Thank you all for showing why you were elected officials in the game and have earned the support of the people.

 

[Shaitan]

The amendment proposal is a bunch of stuff I've been accumulating (department voices, instruction threads, etc) instead of doing Council Votes for each individually.

I think the questions posted should suffice for the polls.

Poll 1:
Should the Domestic Department control the governance of the Capital Province?
Yes/No/Abstain
(Point back to this thread and summarize what we've discussed so far.)

Poll 2:
Should the Deputy Domestic Leader also be the Deputy Governor of the Capital Province?
Yes/No/Abstain
(Point back to this thread and summarize what we've discussed so far.)

Keep it simple to Yes/No/Abstain. I can't think of any response comments that wouldn't color the voting one way or another.

EDIT: Cancel that. I like Eklektikos' suggestions better.

 

[eyrei]

Eklektikos' suggestion sounds good. While these polls would normally fall within the realm of the domestic department, I have an obvious opinion, so someone else should post them.

 

[Zur]

Originally posted by Eklektikos
Should the Capital province:

• be governed under the current system?
• Have a specifically elected governor, like the other provinces?
  [/list=a]
  

• 
  
  Maybe we should also have an option that the Domestic Leader is the governor of the 1st province up to a certain point in the game, when control then passes to a separate governor.

 

[donsig]

I don't think the two polls should be posted together as one poll will influence the other. "Should the Domestic Department control the governance of the Capital Province?" is much different from "Should the Domestic Leader control the governance of the Capital Province? "

We should decide one then decide the other. I think we need some more input before we actually post the polls especially with the recent debate about polls that is within this debate.

I would point out that there is no hurry to decide this (unlike the pressing need we have to decide on the forbidden palace).

 

[Eklektikos]

Originally posted by Zur


Maybe we should also have an option that the Domestic Leader is the governor of the 1st province up to a certain point in the game, when control then passes to a separate governor.

For example up until the point when the empire is divided into two provinces? I can see that implementation working, provided of course the move to provinces comes at a set point... say: x number of cities.

I think this 3rd option should be discussed fully before a poll is posted on the matter.