What sort of undead are the Scions?

[Kurrel]

This question struck me while I was playing last night. I know the Scions are undead, but that can mean a pretty wide variety of things.

Do they come back in bodies of their own or do they possess others?
Do they decay?
Do they feel pain? It seems clear that they feel pleasure, as that's one way to motivate them to return.
Do they need to eat and, if not, CAN they eat at all?
If they're bored, can they simply 'return' to the vault?

 

[odalrick]

They start out in their own bodies, but the mages/priests have enough control over the gift to graft foreign stuff into themselves and others. They could probably transfer your soul if you happen upon a particularly beautiful corpse.

• The military tend to alter themselves to strike fear into enemies or reduce their own vulnerabilities (Headless).
• Civilian alter themselves for pleasure and beauty.
• Priests don't go for big alterations, preferring to strike terror and awe into onlookers simply by being awesome.

They do decay in some fashion, wear out like machines anyway; but they perform regular maintenance so it's not a big issue. I think of the undead from Death Becomes Her.

They feel pain, it's one of the reasons they cut off their heads.

They don't need to eat, but they can enjoy a meal. I don't know if it's just taste, smell and so on, and they need to purge the food later or if they can actually absorb whatever they eat. They have some special foods, like the drink extracted by the Spirit Mill.

All this is when the Gift is weak, in the beginning. Later when when it's stronger, as shown by the spread of Haunted Lands, they get weird.

And in the beginning, before the Necropolis, their settlements contain a significant living population, servants and future Reborn.

 

[Kurrel]

If they are killed, are they sent back to the bottomless vault? If so, can they emerge from it yet again with sufficient coaxing?

Is 'regular maintenance' like embalming/replacing the body and it's damage, or actual repair so that they can pass for human again? Basically, are all their eldest bionic mummies or glamorous rulers?

I forgot some get their heads cut off... do they have a weak point that 'ends' them immediately? Brain, heart, etc?

What happens if you disembowel one of the? Does he or she just get hurt and angry or could they die of it?

 

[azzedar]

without a head how can they see the enemy? the -1 str seems to indicate theyre not pretty good at the latter...
and how do they give and receive/hear commands?
do they need to use toilets?

 

[Kurrel]

Also, can they have children once reborn? Can one Scion and a mortal have children? The reason I ask about this is whether they are completely reliant on the living for new citizens who aren't already contained in the vault.

 

[azzedar]

do they get older? grow up if they have been made undead as children?
can they train their bodies/do they grow muscles?

 

[Calavente]

there are always enough citizen in the vault.
all those are former Patrian of old, dead from centuries and coaxed with luxuries into coming back on Erebus. As Patria was the magical ubercivilization of old, I believe there will always be enough citizen.

IIRC, there are still some living citizen, doing the menial work and sometimes being "allowed" to become undead.

 

[Kurrel]

Interesting. Makes me think that rather than getting unhappy/nonproductive pop, Scions should simply lose population as their best and brightest decide it sucks here and they were better off where they were.

 

[azzedar]

Interesting. Makes me think that rather than getting unhappy/nonproductive pop, Scions should simply lose population as their best and brightest decide it sucks here and they were better off where they were.

as far as i understood they cant go back, therefor just decide to become unhappy and unproductive to show they leader how much he sucks at making them happy. still doesnt answers all those questions above

 

[odalrick]

If they are killed, are they sent back to the bottomless vault?

I don't think they die as such. That just get chopped up into small enough pieces that they are no longer a threat. The promotion Implacable mean those pieces have to be small indeed. The lucky ones drift into a coma.

When the Patria makes it's inevitable comeback, they'll get reassembled.

Is 'regular maintenance' like embalming/replacing the body and it's damage, or actual repair so that they can pass for human again? Basically, are all their eldest bionic mummies or glamorous rulers?

Yes, both. The poor will have to make due with an embalming fluid replacement and a new coat of paint, while the rich can hire flesh sculptors to fulfill their every fantasy. And of course technology makes flesh sculptors available to the masses later.

I forgot some get their heads cut off... do they have a weak point that 'ends' them immediately? Brain, heart, etc?

What happens if you disembowel one of the? Does he or she just get hurt and angry or could they die of it?

No weak points that I know of. Disembowling hurts, raw recruits would be out of the combat. The Implacable Elite will at best get their feet tangled in the intestines. Not likely though, since they probably replaced such useless organs ages ago.

Come to think of it, Scions of Patria aren't racist. A dead orc is as good as a dead human, obviously; but they don't have any elitism about what kind of undead you are either. The ones I've been describing are Reborn and Awakened, but they'll accept Liches, Spectres and whatever too.

without a head how can they see the enemy? the -1 str seems to indicate theyre not pretty good at the latter...
and how do they give and receive/hear commands?

The commander of he group keeps the heads in the back row and tells them what to do. The soldier trust their commander. Obviously much easier in familiar territory.

Also, can they have children once reborn? Can one Scion and a mortal have children?

I kind of wish the answer was no...

Cattle tend to be stillborn, which makes it all the more disturbing as the herds continue to grow.

do they get older? grow up if they have been made undead as children?
can they train their bodies/do they grow muscles?

They don't get "older" but the mind certainly influences their body. A child will probably "grow up" as the mind matures. But an adult could equally well regress. If all else fails there are the flesh crafters.

Interesting. Makes me think that rather than getting unhappy/nonproductive pop, Scions should simply lose population as their best and brightest decide it sucks here and they were better off where they were.

They probably could go back, but it would have to be pretty bad for the vault to look good, and there aren't many ways a Scion city can become unhappy.

I should say that I'm not the Master of All Lore for the scions; I haven't even read all the lore. These are just my observations.

 

[(name here)]

The reason I ask about this is whether they are completely reliant on the living for new citizens who aren't already contained in the vault.

It's called the bottomless tomb for a reason. They don't run out, but eventually new guys stop bothering to come up unless dragged out.

 

[Viatos]

Come to think of it, Scions of Patria aren't racist. A dead orc is as good as a dead human, obviously; but they don't have any elitism about what kind of undead you are either. The ones I've been describing are Reborn and Awakened, but they'll accept Liches, Spectres and whatever too.

Nyaaaah. They're not RACIST, but they are extremely ELITIST, and this seems like the category they'd put lesser undead into. Not about "race", since Liches can also be any original race, but about the inferiority of their methods and forms.

ON SCION MATING: I kind of wish the answer was no...

It probably is. They're not...EXACTLY...reanimate corpses given that they started out as souls given flesh in Ceridwen's God-killing trap, but how human their biology really is is certainly in question, and especially once nature begins to "mend" into Haunted Lands their life-and-death merger would likely not go well with procreation. The word "abomination" comes to mind.

That said, they don't need to procreate - immortal citizens, and they actively recruit.

 

[azzedar]

reanimate corpses given that they started out as souls given flesh in Ceridwen's God-killing trap,

please explain, especially that ceridwens god-killing trap thing

 

[Tarquelne]

Come to think of it, Scions of Patria aren't racist. A dead orc is as good as a dead human,

Hmm... a lot of the "I was born in ancient Patria!" Scions could be racists. But the Scions (the Age of Rebirth civ) certainly seem to accept all races.

Where might a Gifted orc go in Patrian society?
The army seems likely.
And because of military flesh-sculpting the orcs won't necessarily look like orcs.

So you might get a LOT of orcs in the army without it being obvious. And you might get a lot of un-thinking Patrian civilians making racist comments.

Scion Leader idea: A former-orc commander of non-Patrian Scions who won a civil war against the Patrian-born Scions. Aggressive/Barbarian?

On headless Scions: The Honored Band entry addresses several of the questions, and here's the "Attach Head" entry from a Wild Mana module. (In WM many Scion units start Headless.)

Spoiler :

"We have something special to show you today, Madam Ambassador."

"Do you now? I'd call the whole city "special," Commander Daeki. And please, call me Elizabeth."

Elizabeth DeCardin had been in the Scion city for over a month, and her words were not entirely empty flattery. Having left Cevedes braced for horrors, only the portion of the journey through the haunted lands had been at all disquieting. Of course the Scions were putting on a show for her, and she had far from free-access in this military town... but still, it was all far more pleasant than she'd expected. Commander Daeki himself was probably the most disagreeable aspect of the city. Scarred and horned, the Patrian officer looked more like a demon than the civilized, urbane soldier she'd become familiar with. Nothing but a show. She thought the Scion habit of making their military men all look like monsters was a bit childish, to tell the truth. Not that she would.

Daeki led the Amurite ambassador to a walkway overlooking a large courtyard. Bleachers placed along one side of the yard held a crowd of civilian Patrians, with some richly dressed dignitaries on a special platform to the side. A mix of both civilian and military dignitaries, Elizabeth could easily see. The civilians possessed the uncanny beauty of all "Gifted" Patrians, while a few were the usual military horror show. Several rows of armed and armored warriors faced the crowd. Heavy infantry, it seemed. Probably a unit of the Empire's "Principes". They lacked heads, of course, though their commanding officer did not. The ambassador had seen enough headless troops within the castle find them unexceptional. Along with the officer, a couple of priests and a woman who was probably a mage stood before the warriors. There was what looked to be a large number of small boxes piled neatly behind the priests.

"A military ceremony, I presume? Awards?"

"Something like that, Madam Ambassador. Here, they're beginning."

One of the military men on the platform started addressing the crowd, praising the soldiers for their honor and courage. All the usual blather. Daeki related an incident in Avitas he'd just heard off from a letter. A Lanun trader had bet he could out-drink a Scion trader, each drinking the other's preferred beverage.

"The disagreement was about relative capacities, Madam Ambassador."

Apparently the Scion trader had suffered some embarrassing damage from over-filling his stomach with brandy. The Lanun trader, however, had worse luck with the Spirit Essence wine of the Scions. Elizabeth chortled at the story's conclusion.

"Haunted by little pink sheep and pigs? Commander, you don't believe a word if it, I hope. You've already told me of the tall-tales your great-grandson sends you. I would have thought a judge would look more to his respectability.

Daeki just smiled and shrugged, then said "Here, they're starting."

Down in the courtyard a priest was handed one of the small boxes by his companion. Then the priest and the mage stepped up to the first of the soldiers standing at attention. When the priest opened the box's lid the mage reached in and drew from it... a man's head.

"It's his own head, of course," volunteered Commander Daeki. "They number the boxes quite carefully, I assure you. Besides, the magic won't work right with the wrong head."

Moving carefully, the mage settled the head onto the shoulders of the soldier, paused for a moment with her hands to either side of the head, and then stepped back. The soldier suddenly raised his sword and shouted "For the Emperor!" "For the Emperor!" the onlookers shouted back.

As the ceremony progressed, each soldier receiving his head in turn, Commander Daeki explained:[PARAGRAPH]"Our extrasensory magics turn what would be a severe handicap for many - headlessness - into a net asset", he dryly began. "But a unit spearheading an attack often wants its senses at their sharpest at the battle. Not in Urbis Arcana. So sometimes a picked unit will have their heads restored when in service rather than at decommissioning. You do realize that decommissioned soldiers receive their heads back, yes?"

"I had assumed as much. Or on promotion to... Captain, yes?"

"Of course, Madam Ambassador. I should expect you to be well informed."

Each soldier shouted when his head was reattached, and those who'd been restored before joined the audience in echoing him. Elizabeth became aware that the heads were not opening their eyes only after being reattached. And by watching carefully she determined the eyes of the unattached heads were not locked forward, as she had first assumed. Instead they merely stared forward. Like good soldiers on parade.

"Well, this Urbis Arcana isn't something I'm familiar with."

Daeki laughed. "We usually just call it "Box city" or "The Four Walls Resort." Soldiers are given the best drink, and treated to entertainments such as music, dancing, plays... you know... and duty permitting. Anything you just need your head for, they can take part in. Even out in the field. It's a huge boon for morale, let me tell you."

"I can imagine."

"Still, being "capitaled" is considered a great honor. It means the Emperor deems you worthy of leading the armies of Patria on the march, in the attack. The vanguard of conquest... ex-cetera ex-cetera. If you've seen enough....? I know her Highness the governor wants to see you.

As Commander Daeki turned to leave Elizabeth stayed looking on the courtyard below, attention focused not on the soldiers but on what Daeki had just said. "May I ask where the soldiers below are normally stationed?"

Daeki didn't turn to face her again, but shrugged and waved one had dismissively. "Somewhere over on your border, I believe. Now, come with me, please. I think her Highness has some questions for you about the treaty." Elizabeth followed, thinking that Scion shows weren't invariably empty.

 

[odalrick]

Nyaaaah. They're not RACIST, but they are extremely ELITIST, and this seems like the category they'd put lesser undead into. Not about "race", since Liches can also be any original race, but about the inferiority of their methods and forms.

But the thing about being elitist is that who is the elite can change. Mindless undead will be pretty firmly on the bottom, a Lich who can bend the rules of space and life with his mind is, almost by definition, the elite. Most spectres and ghosts et cetera have only a tenuous grasp on reality and existence, but if one manages to rise to power, it will be received as anyone else. Likewise, if an ancient Patrian is revealed to be feasting on the souls of children, living or dead, he will soon regret not being able to die.

As far as undead orcs go: all it takes is one recognizable orc to do something heroic and any prejudice will be swept away by a tide of high fashion. "Don't you know that all the ladies are having orc tusks grafted in, it's sooo sexy... and there is this thing you can do in bed..."

Of course people can still be racist. Society as a whole doesn't seem like it.

 

[Viatos]

please explain, especially that ceridwens god-killing trap thing

Full explanation in Kick'n It With The Legion. Basically, it's a Vault (a divine domain created by a God whose "natural laws" and so forth function as that God sees fit) wherein all things are unified with each other, creating constant flux and yet constant stasis. New things can be added, but creation is impossible: everything is everything, and making more of anything won't distinguish it from everything else. Rahserat suspects it's going to be used against the One, subliming Him into everything else and either rendering Him impotent or rendering everything omnipotent.

But the thing about being elitist is that who is the elite can change. Mindless undead will be pretty firmly on the bottom, a Lich who can bend the rules of space and life with his mind is, almost by definition, the elite. Most spectres and ghosts et cetera have only a tenuous grasp on reality and existence, but if one manages to rise to power, it will be received as anyone else. Likewise, if an ancient Patrian is revealed to be feasting on the souls of children, living or dead, he will soon regret not being able to die.

Bending the rules of space and life is the first trick the Scions learned in Ceridwen's Vault. Those with a talent for it do become elite within their society, but if Liches are traditional undead their existence might be seen as crass, even pitiful, by the transcended beings who call themselves Scions.

And a more likely taboo for a Patrian would be betraying Patria or the Risen Emperor. Feasting on the souls of children sounds like the kind of thing the high society might get up to on a regular basis.

 

[odalrick]

Bending the rules of space and life is the first trick the Scions learned in Ceridwen's Vault.

No, it isn't. If it was all Scion units would start with Channeling I-III and Death I-III. Scions can become Liches and they wouldn't do that if it meant a step back.

Those with a talent for it do become elite within their society, but if Liches are traditional undead their existence might be seen as crass, even pitiful, by the transcended beings who call themselves Scions.

Scions are traditional Undead, and they have the promotion to prove it. But really, we are in the area defined by the player by now.

And a more likely taboo for a Patrian would be betraying Patria or the Risen Emperor. Feasting on the souls of children sounds like the kind of thing the high society might get up to on a regular basis.

Given their focus on everlasting existence, I'd think true murder is a great crime in any Scion rendition. Even in a Chaotic Evil empire, the crime would be letting the plebs know that you eat souls.

Conversely, betraying the emperor could be a great crime, or on the level of swearing.

 

[azzedar]

Given their focus on everlasting existence, I'd think true murder is a great crime in any Scion rendition. Even in a Chaotic Evil empire, the crime would be letting the plebs know that you eat souls.

Conversely, betraying the emperor could be a great crime, or on the level of swearing.

i dont know, i think in a very evil society murder would then be the most despisable if you kill someone above you in hierachy, while the opposite may be a sign of bad taste if overdone but not necessarily pursued by law
im thinking of a calabim court, where the only answer from that vampire baron would be like "oh, that lord, oh no, no, hes so much without style(alternativly insert any french word here). you dont kill a good butler! ...at least not three times in a row."

 

[Viatos]

No, it isn't. If it was all Scion units would start with Channeling I-III and Death I-III. Scions can become Liches and they wouldn't do that if it meant a step back.

Alright, first trick they experienced. It's still old hat, and the presence of the Haunted Lands reduces the grotesque and bizarre to the commonplace.

Scions are traditional Undead, and they have the promotion to prove it. But really, we are in the area defined by the player by now.

Or by the lore, where Scions are intelligent, flesh-sculpting undead with no loss of sensation in experiencing life's pleasures, capable of complete autonomy and unspeakable transformation. Traditional undead are shambling zombies, skeletons, and the occasional skeletal/mummified lich, all of whom have made great sacrifices for immortality.

Even the lich, retaining its mind, gives up a living body to inhabit an animate corpse, which is not what Scions do: their original citizenry did not have corporeal bodies previous to their exodus from Arawn's Vault, and their new forms are mutable at whim by the more experienced of their flesh-sculptors. A lich trades much for more power and immortality; do Scions view this as a bargain or a bad deal? Can a lich's body benefit from Scion flesh-sculpting? Their arcane line is certainly quite powerful on its own.

Also, CAN Scions make liches? For some reason I seem to remember not being able to, but it's been a while since I've gotten their archmages out. Does being Undead block the Lich spell?

Given their focus on everlasting existence, I'd think true murder is a great crime in any Scion rendition. Even in a Chaotic Evil empire, the crime would be letting the plebs know that you eat souls.

That makes a ton of sense, my apologies.

 

[azzedar]

Also, CAN Scions make liches? For some reason I seem to remember not being able to, but it's been a while since I've gotten their archmages out. Does being Undead block the Lich spell?

afaik it doesnt.