What speed do you play on?

[dopingman]

Preying on "AI is stronger on slower speeds due to bonuses". Sorry for the off-topic btw.

This may be true, but it shows how ineffecient the AI is in using those bonuses. A human mind is much better in using every resource available to its maximum wheras the AI just wastes a grand of it on useless or outright stupid stuff. If you tighten the time between the recoveries after a dangerous blow (be it economic or military wise), the human is left with less time to reap maximum benefits from its resources. It may be true that the AI can field a larger army on marathon/epic, but you will beat it to pulp nontheless, because well, you are a human who understands how the game mechanics work, e.g. ranged being the military way to go (whereas the AI is just moving in this enviroment without understanding it). After reducing their military they don't have the time to replenish their losses and the human starts to grab cities. Otherwise on quick/normal the gaps are fairly quickly closed. Also having more time to process decisions makes it easier for humans as it matters less if you check the trade screen every turn to check if the perceived rating of the AI is still credible or you get less for your resource deal, if the game is on slower speeds. The AI does need the exact same amount of time to process a turn on quick as it needs on epic with a specific setup in place. Human may change their mindest during this time, the AI doesn't.

Edit: Also game is balanced around standart speed, so some units are just plain OP if they go obsolete less quickly (looking at you Keshiks/Camel Archers)

 

[pilot00]

I cant understand the mentality on this.

Note: Numbers are fictional


Human turns to build an infantry unit 10.
AI with prod bonuses 5 turns.

Whether you wipe its army or not it still has 5 turns to build a new unit.

Epic speed:

Human build infantry 15 turns.
AI with prod bonuses 7 turns.

How that translates to the AI been unable to cope up?

And not to count other bonuses such as research and general building times that ought to bring the AI in a stronger position. After all, production and growth bonuses for the AI stack up. I.E. if you build a barracks faster you will produce units with more promotions faster. If you build a factory faster you will produce units even faster and so on.

 

[Unresolved]

I cant understand the mentality on this.

Note: Numbers are fictional


Human turns to build an infantry unit 10.
AI with prod bonuses 5 turns.

Whether you wipe its army or not it still has 5 turns to build a new unit.

Epic speed:

Human build infantry 15 turns.
AI with prod bonuses 7 turns.

How that translates to the AI been unable to cope up?

Because humans don't need to replace as many units as the AI. When you're attacking a capital, reinforcements coming in 1 turn or 3 turns can be the difference between success and failure.

 

[pilot00]

Because humans don't need to replace as many units as the AI. When you're attacking a capital, reinforcements coming in 1 turn or 3 turns can be the difference between success and failure.

Yet still I fail to grasp it. In normal difficulty you have to use say 10 units to win a war but the AI will have at least double. In epic it might be as far as quadruple due to its bonuses. Once you broken the AIs army its over, it cant reinforce in time and that is irrelevant of game speed. The only reinforcements it will throw are rush buys but those are limited (to an extent) However in epic it has ample time (a runaway at least) to build a massive army making conquest a bit of a tricky scenario. Only in epic I have seen the AI field 20+ bombers. If that is not a boost IDK what it is.

 

[dopingman]

Well, let's try again. The build time of stuff, GPT, rush buy costs, research, etc., etc., everything scales with game speed, EXCEPT movement speed. And that is the crucial point. The human knows this, the AI doesn't recognize this. Like Unresolved said, the human doesn't (or rather shouldn't have to) replenish its troops after the initial combat, the AI does and it does take more time for it on slower speeds. The AI will and can pump out troops on Imm+ /w standart speed every turn. On marathon or slower it simply can't, adding to the fact that it holds less cash compared to the increase in rush buy costs. Note that all those matters have to be seen COMPARATIVELY and in comparison the AI acts slower, the slower the game is, wheras humans act as fast as they would on faster speeds. It cannot adapt to a new enviromental situation, where the human mind, given enough time (which is plentiful on marathon or slower) can.

Considering your enemies bomber stack on epic, I have to say, well, you should've beaten them to pulp already. I mean you play epic, GWB is then viable for nearly 150 turns, if that is not enough to conquer every AI you're doing something wrong or play really huge maps...

I mean, I even consider diety doable in 50% of the cases on epic speed with my skills and I only win 40% of my Immo games on standart speed.

If we are talking about difficulties King or below, it may be true that the AI is stronger on slower speeds, as players tend to make more mistakes with worse skill (this is no offense, everyone started as a noob, I did, you did, everyone did), giving the AI more time to build up troops and reap its bonuses in general.

 

[Unresolved]

Yet still I fail to grasp it. In normal difficulty you have to use say 10 units to win a war but the AI will have at least double. In epic it might be as far as quadruple due to its bonuses. Once you broken the AIs army its over, it cant reinforce in time and that is irrelevant of game speed. The only reinforcements it will throw are rush buys but those are limited (to an extent) However in epic it has ample time (a runaway at least) to build a massive army making conquest a bit of a tricky scenario. Only in epic I have seen the AI field 20+ bombers. If that is not a boost IDK what it is.

There shouldn't be much of a difference in AI army size since everything is scaled(everything we're talking about at any rate). The only difference is the speed at which the AI can reinforce itself. Since any capital should be taken in 3 turns without distractions, those extra 2 turns you have to attack undisturbed would basically ensure that you get the city without a hitch. On standard speed, you might get blindsided by a few melee units which could kill a unit or two.

 

[pilot00]

Well, let's try again. The build time of stuff, GPT, rush buy costs, research, etc., etc., everything scales with game speed, EXCEPT movement speed. And that is the crucial point. The human knows this, the AI doesn't recognize this. Like Unresolved said, the human doesn't (or rather shouldn't have to) replenish its troops after the initial combat, the AI does and it does take more time for it on slower speeds. The AI will and can pump out troops on Imm+ /w standart speed every turn. On marathon or slower it simply can't, adding to the fact that it holds less cash compared to the increase in rush buy costs. Note that all those matters have to be seen COMPARATIVELY and in comparison the AI acts slower, the slower the game is, wheras humans act as fast as they would on faster speeds. It cannot adapt to a new enviromental situation, where the human mind, given enough time (which is plentiful on marathon or slower) can.

Considering your enemies bomber stack on epic, I have to say, well, you should've beaten them to pulp already. I mean you play epic, GWB is then viable for nearly 150 turns, if that is not enough to conquer every AI you're doing something wrong or play really huge maps...

I mean, I even consider diety doable in 50% of the cases on epic speed with my skills and I only win 40% of my Immo games on standart speed.

If we are talking about difficulties King or below, it may be true that the AI is stronger on slower speeds, as players tend to make more mistakes with worse skill (this is no offense, everyone started as a noob, I did, you did, everyone did), giving the AI more time to build up troops and reap its bonuses in general.

Em actually GTP, culture, faith, food and production generation remains the same. The only difference is that the total costs scale up. Given the fact that the AI is given more of everything in the first place its the human that gets gimped.
Another question? What is 'initial combat'? Once a war starts you either are going to wipe them out or do them enough damage and settle a peace treaty. If you fight a war with a civ that has 30 cities (not that uncommon), it means that it has a vast amount of gold to rush buy units every single turn. That will keep you on your toes, and we are not calculating its production bonuses. The fact that the AI cant compete in combat is not a problem of the speed setting, its on the AI itself. The fact that it will produce a tank or rush buy it on a city on an island 50 tiles away from the city that is about to fall, has nothing to do with the speed setting. On slower speeds its given more advantages than the player, because its own advantages due to difficulty level effectively eliminate the extra turns of epic (at least) speed needed to produce something (well not exactly but still it will produce a hefty amount of stuff a lot faster than a human).

And about that bomber stack, are we talking about a specific game that I should defeat them 'already' or in general and when is that already? And huge maps are perfectly accepted normal setting last time I checked so....

Truth be told I don't understand your arguments at all. To me it reads as thus:
Since the AI cant use its units on any setting you should not play on epic or large maps because it cant produce more (which is plain wrong) in the time you take to destroy them....Also play smaller maps...

My observations are based on difficulties of emperor and above. And yes I play really huge maps on random settings, no good starts only, or domination pangea only. What it rolls I play. How can you understand how the AI performs by playing only on pre set up optimal (for you) settings?

Also: No offense taken, I don't consider myself an expert player but I understand the mechanics of the game well enough to win on any difficulty nowadays. Far from record times but I can win pretty much consistently. I also hope you don't take any offense because as I reread my post it seems a bit rough. Sorry for that not meant to agitate/insult.

There shouldn't be much of a difference in AI army size since everything is scaled(everything we're talking about at any rate). The only difference is the speed at which the AI can reinforce itself. Since any capital should be taken in 3 turns without distractions, those extra 2 turns you have to attack undisturbed would basically ensure that you get the city without a hitch. On standard speed, you might get blindsided by a few melee units which could kill a unit or two.

Again I will say, that those turns are offset by the fact that the AI gets production bonuses on the higher difficulties (since we are talking about those only) and it has a huge amount of gold to buy units. Not exactly everything is scaled. Everything a city or tile/improvement can produce remain at the same yields whereas the costs increase according to speed level. The AI though compensates by virtue of difficulty level. Yes on king or even emperor for some the change wont be noticeable but play epic on Immortal and above and tell me that the AI doesnt have time to build. The fact that the AI is hopeless in using basic tactics and reinforcing through rush buying (not so much after many fixes but still not good enough IMHO), is not a problem to be blamed on the speed level. In fact wide empire AIs (almost all of them really) preform better at slower speeds and higher difficulty.


EDIT: IDK, it seems to me that though we might be playing on epic/marathon speeds the set up of our games are so radically different that we get such wide varying results.

 

[dopingman]

Well, then I would say we settle on an agreement that we disagree, shall we? For me, slower is easier, for you it is the opposite, so be it.

PS: Play the speed and size you want, whatever floats your boat is my motto here

 

[pilot00]

Well, then I would say we settle on an agreement that we disagree, shall we? For me, slower is easier, for you it is the opposite, so be it.

PS: Play the speed and size you want, whatever floats your boat is my motto here

We agree. Yeah its a matter of perspective. I don't try to force my opinion, but I am trying to express my mentality.