What to do if an AI has a tech lead and you can't trade up?

[SadClownFish]

Hey, new guy here trying out a Beyond the Sword Noble game with Tokugawa.

I had a rough start still figuring things out and had some rough spots in the economy as I took out Suleimon and vassalized Charlie from early A.D period to Renaissance time. I managed to grab a bunch of tech from Charlie (forgot to pressure Sully before wacking him) but now as I travel acrosss the water to take out Gilgamesh I notice with horror the tech lead that Darius has. How did the AI do this with such low land? Am I too behind? I got spies there but no option to steal tech comes up? Turtle? Can I get Hatty to help? I'm at war with Saladin because of Apostilic palace pressure but he can't really do anything and despite frequent warring between Hatty + Darius vs. Saladin I don't think they've even bothered to invade.

Edit: It's latest BTS patch. Not the fanpatch as I wasn't sure if it would interfere with the Fall from heaven 2 mod.

 

[Sjaramei]

You are fine. The tech lead isn't that big of a deal. Get Artillery and upgrade that huge stack of yours and hit Darius. (You could even hit him right after Gilga but that would cost you a lot ) He's a sucky warmonger so you will probably steamroll him.

I just took a quick peek, but I don't get why you are running State Property, you aren't spamming workshops (from my quick peek, sorry if I saw wrong ) and stuff so the food bonus isn't the reason. Your empire isn't that huge so the maintenance isn't a problem either. (I've never used SP for this reason ever and I've had some pretty huge empires) A switch to Free market/Representation gave you +100 more beakers when I did it.

Burn a golden age after Gilga too rebuild a bit with Rep/Free market, and try to stockpile some gold to upgrade that stack of yours right next to Darius. When your stack is lots of infantry/artillery attack him. (switch back to Police state right before golden age ends if you feel like you need it bad)

-Lumbermills on grassland forests in Oxford city? A city like that should have max cottages and food for science specialists. Cottage them up, you have 2 mines for the little production you need in such a city anyway.

Else you are doing just fine. Don't be scared of such a tech lead. I've seen far worse in my games You could even get a space win from this position I think. You don't need allies in the attack really. But if you get one it's good.

 

[Refar]

did not looked at the save... But i.g. if everyone is ahead in of you in tech Internet could be a possibility - if you can beeline to get it first...

 

[SadClownFish]

Alright, thanks yall.

 

[namliaM]

Well The Great Lighthouse + a good number of Coastal cities + Great Library + Spiral minaret. Boy he was really at it... I can imagine him getting ahead.

But things dont look grim as He has no more state religion = SM useless. Both TGL are obsoleet by now. So those advantages are gone... but you have a lot of catching up to do.
Still you (look like) 2 techs down, Physics and AssLine. You are due to get AssLine in 2 turns (1 if you go 80% science). Just 5 turns to Physics... So you are not in that bad of a shape I dont think.
Then again he has battleships, which means Industrialism: Electricity

Couple of things I notice:
1) I think you would have been better of killing Rome.
2) Istanbul is STILL building a Lighthouse? That is a HIGH priority in any coastal city
3) You have not build your FP yet?
4) No MOA Status build yet? This while your capitol is coastal and has 3 seafood resources?
5) Said capitol has 3 seafood resources but no Lighthouse?
6) Said capitol has Oxford University build in it, why does it STILL have 3 forrests? These should have been cottaged over LOOOONG time ago.
7) Wallstreet has not been build yet tho you have the Confusion shrine bringing you 26gpt. Also Confusionalism is not spread to all your cities (i.e. Istanbul)
8) Specialize your cities more properly. You build everything just about everywhere.
i.e.
Satsuma has 10 hills not counting the sheep.
Tokyo has 3 hills and some grass/plains mixture. You build HE + Ironworks in Tokyo, with a cottage mixed in and Lumbermills on GRASS FORRESTS. This while you have windmills on the hills in Satsuma. IMHO Satsuma would have made a much better target for HE. And I ussually do not mix HE and Ironworks.
9) A bank in Bursa is going to net you 3.75 gpt for an investment of 200 hammers! Is that really worth it?
A harbor at 80 hammers would yield 3gpt.... Half the investement 80% of the gain. This commerce will then be +50% for either commerce or gold, so in the end the Harbor generates even more than the bank (4.5 vs 3.75)
10) Your general settling/raze/keep decisions leave something to be desired, why for example have you not settled any city due NW and SW of Angle?
Also I think there is room (even now, but very early on also) for a nice city just east of that corn just south of Kyoto
11) You are not in HR yet you have so many units that you are paying 40gpt upkeep for warriors parked in your cities doing nothing.
12) You only have two friends Hathy and Darius... and you are not trading (much) with either.
They have happyness resources as well as GPT to give you. Making their GPT 31 in all work for you (by selling them some resource(s), I mostly sell Health myself)

All in all I think if you pick up these things and focuse a little more your cities, would would have not been in this situation... How to get out of it?
A domination win is in the making I think. Whipe out sumeria, while getting AssLine. Build Factories and Coalplants in your HAMMER cities while your army goes and annihilates backward Saladin with your standing army.
Meanwhile tech to Industrialism and use Darius' land and OBs to stage an attack vs Hathy with Planes and Tanks. Should be over real quick

 

[SadClownFish]

Thanks for the indepth! I think I remembered reading that one should save a few forests here somewhere and I was worried about getting my invasion fleets up earlier so I was afraid to drop them from the capital. Gilga had a surprising number of frigates too so I needed Ship o the lines.

So are grasslands forests always cottaged? And you cottage plains?

I had HR for a long time and was reluctant to part with it because I was low on cash and couldn't spend any on the cultural slider. And tokyo seemed closer to my former enemies on the continent and for the invasion ships launching from prague.

What's an OB? I didn't see it on the acronym list. And you recommend leaving Darius alone? His culture looks ready to leak over to my new holding and his captital is right there, no?

I had not thought of settling those new cities there...hmmm.

 

[Sjaramei]

Thanks for the indepth! I think I remembered reading that one should save a few forests here somewhere and I was worried about getting my invasion fleets up earlier so I was afraid to drop them from the capital. Gilga had a surprising number of frigates too so I needed Ship o the lines.

So are grasslands forests always cottaged? And you cottage plains?

Cottage when the city can support them (enough food) and need em. Production cities needs workshops and farms instead, lumbermills if you can keep those forest around long enough. Only keep forests if you really really need the health, or don't see yourself working the tile for a long time. (Riverside and grassland forests most likely are better to farm/cottage over)

I had HR for a long time and was reluctant to part with it because I was low on cash and couldn't spend any on the cultural slider. And tokyo seemed closer to my former enemies on the continent and for the invasion ships launching from prague.

What's an OB? I didn't see it on the acronym list. And you recommend leaving Darius alone? His culture looks ready to leak over to my new holding and his captital is right there, no?

OB = Open Border

I wouldn't recommend leaving him alone. Eliminating your main rival and increase your empire? What's not to like?

 

[namliaM]

I wouldn't recommend leaving him alone. Eliminating your main rival and increase your empire? What's not to like?

Not liking is fighting against Infantry and tanks with Riffles and Cavalry... It can be done... but there are (much) easier targets in Saladin (tho a nightmare to ship your militarty to him and back) and Hathy, tho she is on level par as far as techs go...
So that is a hard fight too, but... much less so than facing Infantry

 

[Sjaramei]

Not liking is fighting against Infantry and tanks with Riffles and Cavalry... It can be done... but there are (much) easier targets in Saladin (tho a nightmare to ship your militarty to him and back) and Hathy, tho she is on level par as far as techs go...
So that is a hard fight too, but... much less so than facing Infantry

Well from my experience I always go for my main rivals first. Game gets easier later that way

And he has a pretty decent stack next to Darius, upgrade this one to Artillery/Infantry and it should be in the bag. (If some of those Rifles/Grens were CR promoted too, it should be easy)

And Darius, Mansa etc always have decent tech but crappy army. (I've fought mansa with Infantry and Longbows.... they spend most of their resources into research, and neglect their army) Don't be scared of Darius, he only has a few cities, and I believe his power is low. Scout out his territory a bit if you are scared. I wouldn't be.

 

[namliaM]

Infantry vs Tanks? Ouch!
Darius CAN build tanks you know... 20 vs 28 strength with CR or no... Ouch!

 

[Sjaramei]

Infantry vs Tanks? Ouch!
Darius CAN build tanks you know... 20 vs 28 strength with CR or no... Ouch!

Artillery beats tanks camping cities. Thats were the losses will be if he has some of those. (which I don't think he has)

If not 2 Infantry should deal with 1 tank. It's manageable, don't be scared... it's Darius... If it was Shaka we were talking about I would worry

 

[SadClownFish]

Well I got Gilgamesh and I noticed that Grenadiers can upgrade to Machineguns. Is it worth it to have a few a those to absorb counterattacks or should I go all out infantry?

And yes I got cities working on antitank in anticipation, and was thinking of going learning combustion for better transports or maybe electricity?

 

[namliaM]

I still say skip the tank boy... go for Saladin and Hathy...

 

[Refar]

Depend on what the counterattacks are. MG's are at they best, when defending your stacks against somewhat obsolete armies with lots of siege (as they are immune to collateral)... Wont help you much against Tanks.

 

[SadClownFish]

Well I got a domination victory after I took out all of darius's cities (except for one on some little island somewhere had to vassalize hime) and several of Hattie's.

I noticed that I didn't need the counter units that much at all or even tanks when I finally got those online. Artillery plus infantry destroy everything. The Anti tanks only caught a few out side the city stacks a couple of times. Are special units mostly for stack defense? I notice when you try to attack the enemy stack will switch automatically so you can't use them on the offense effectively. Is this normal? Is there a way to lure opponents out to split up?

 

[Refar]

Sometimes a faster unit will split up from a enemy stack or city, if you try to pillage something important or to take back a worker you snaged. But for the big part you are right - specialist units are for stack defence, and even there you can often get away without, by giving your mainstream unit specialist promotions instead (like Ambush vs Tank...)