What units make a good attacking force?

[Chomper]

Hello civfanatics, I could've swore I had some account that hadn't been touched for a year on here but I couldn't remember the name, but I'm back now that I'm finally playing Civ 3 again. I've reread through most of the War Academy and I've yet to see something to help me with my current problem.

I usually play the role of a builder, and as America or Babylon I can easily gt to 100k on Warlord on huge maps with 15 rivals, usually never warring. In my current game I decided to play as the Greeks (70% water, continents, default other settings) to take advantage of immediate defenders and alphabet putting me closer to getting catapults.

My ideal strategy was to weaken all of a city's defenders to 1hp and attack with defensive units, who should surely get one hit in before they die. This was not the case. The hoplite has been phenomenal up to this point, and only producing two types of units has made management easier as I always have the one for the job ready. I am at the beginning of the Middle Ages, sharing the lead with a few other civs that have Monotheism, currently getting a lot of gpt while paying 0 for science (Great Library). I could start researching to get Knights for myself, which I could update to Calvary later, but I'd waste their movement if I kept them in the stacks.

Fast units do help in my plan of not dying, so I can heal in the captured city and send newly produced units to a stack of their own, but they are expensive and an upgrading dead end. This is why I didn't use swordsman (foolish?) and love defensive units and artillery- they can always be upgraded and can be permenantly left garrisonned in the captured cities.

But more offensive units seem to be a neccesary evil to beat the RNG without heavy losses, what do you reccomend in an attacking stack besides enough hoplites to occupy (plus some) as well as enough catapults to usually bring each defender down to 1hp?

 

[vmxa]

Use swords and not hops. Warlord a lot less cats as swords are better and it is expensive to plop cats all over the place. They can neither defend nor attack. That is why I don't take bombardment units on an invasion. I bring them on the second wave.

You need too many cats to ping all down to 1hp and even, if they are no sure bet the hop will win on attacking. All in all a very expensive way to wage war against some pretty weak nations. I would not even wait for Math to go to war.

 

[Aabraxan]

Welcome back to CFC, Chomper!

You may already know this, but I hope it's helpful. Every unit has an A/D/M rating, which is its Attack/Defense/Movement rating. Look at these to determine which unit is best suited to a task. For example, a spearman is a 1.2.1 unit. Attack=1, Defense=2, Movement=1. A swordsman is 3.2.1. Accordingly, attack with swords. Hoplites are 1.3.1 (IIRC), so they defend like pikes, but they attack like warriors (1.1.1) . . . Great defenders, awful attackers.

Artillery units are all 1 move, up until radar artillery, so you can pair them with swords, MDI, infantry, or other 1-move units without wasting movement. Fast movers have to either leave the rock-throwers behind, or waste movement, so don't pair those two (fast & arty).

Check out Warmongering 101 and some of the other military articles in the War Academy for more info.

 

[Chomper]

Welcome back to CFC, Chomper!

You may already know this, but I hope it's helpful. Every unit has an A/D/M rating, which is its Attack/Defense/Movement rating. Look at these to determine which unit is best suited to a task. For example, a spearman is a 1.2.1 unit. Attack=1, Defense=2, Movement=1. A swordsman is 3.2.1. Accordingly, attack with swords. Hoplites are 1.3.1 (IIRC), so they defend like pikes, but they attack like warriors (1.1.1) . . . Great defenders, awful attackers.

Artillery units are all 1 move, up until radar artillery, so you can pair them with swords, MDI, infantry, or other 1-move units without wasting movement. Fast movers have to either leave the rock-throwers behind, or waste movement, so don't pair those two (fast & arty).

Check out Warmongering 101 and some of the other military articles in the War Academy for more info.

I understand the values, and have read through most of the articles, but my theory was that they could win on one of their four shots (if only veteran) and heal up while defending the city but that wasn't always the case. Large numbers of catapults are very effective, but as vmxa said they are too expensive with the numbers I need. I played before I got back online and horseman actually were effective, they could be produced mid-war and still catch up with the slower catapults and hoplites up front. The game isn't turning out horribly, but it isn't the wild success I expected, so I may just finish this one out instead of scrapping it all together. Thanks for the tips!

 

[Aabraxan]

Well, I hope I didn't sound condescending. That was never my intention. The second half of your plan (hoplites heal while defending city) isn't unreasonable. It's just that whole attacking thing that gets them into trouble. Also, don't forget to take other matters into consideration, like terrain. Killing a spear out in the open, like a settler pair, is one thing. It's quite another to kill a spear that's fortified in a city on a hill while attacking across a river.

Cats are very valuable, but they do get expensive in large numbers. Later in the game, after you've expanded and perhaps taken down a civ or two, your unit support should be high enough that it isn't a problem, though.

Good luck and keep us posted.

 

[Lanzelot]

The difficulty level also plays a role in this question.

• On warlord I never build defenders nor bombard units. The AI is so weak, that they will never be able to attack you in large scale, so no need for defenders. And they are so lightly defended, that bombard units aren't necessary either.
• Around Monarch/Emperor I may need a few defenders here and there and also some bombard units to take that hill town with walls...
• Starting at Emperor and higher a good defense and bombard units (for both, defending and attacking) becomes necessary.

Of course there are exceptions to this rule. If you have a great starting position and your neighbor a lousy tundra start, and therefore he is backward, you may not need any defenders/bombard units even on Emperor/Demigod. And if it's the other way around and you are backwards, you may need them already on Regent.

In general, the horseman is the best unit in the AA, knights are excellent in the early MA, and if you can get to Cavalry quickly in the advanced MA, then their power is so overwhelming, that you don't need anything else...

 

[Chomper]

I took most of your guy's advice. I disbanded the catapults but left the hoplites to garrison in cities, I producd knights and ovrpowered my closest neighbor (Rome) wit ease. I'll probably try to get one or two more before the industrial age. I doubt there's that much to learn about them, but when they become more effective I may use an artillery or two on a weaker enemy so I'm still learning how to use them right before I'll move up and really need them. Thanks for all the help, the builder side of me showed very clearly in this thread.

 

[Snarkhunter]

I took most of your guy's advice. I disbanded the catapults but left the hoplites to garrison in cities, I producd knights and ovrpowered my closest neighbor (Rome) wit ease. I'll probably try to get one or two more before the industrial age. I doubt there's that much to learn about them, but when they become more effective I may use an artillery or two on a weaker enemy so I'm still learning how to use them right before I'll move up and really need them. Thanks for all the help, the builder side of me showed very clearly in this thread.

Actual artillery, as opposed to cannons, are worth their weight in gold. The 2-tile range & the 2 HP damage possible opens a lot of options for use. Couple them with rails, cav armies, and a flock of workers railing new territories, & you can blitz an AI to death in a couple of turns.

kk

 

[Fiddlin Nero]

I guess I'm a little surprised, IMHO the only thing that makes a good attacking unit is a better attack value than the defending unit's defense value. If they are anywhere close to even than you need some amount of bombardment depending on terrain and city multipliers. In desperation I've redlined Infantry and attacked with Cavalry but I will expect high casualties.

 

[Raliuven]

If you haven't read GK2 - the Training Day Experiement it might be a good read. I don't remember which trainer said it, but they laid down a challenge - never build another spearman and watch your game performance improve dramatically. I've followed this advice and it has helped. I don't know if this always holds true. Its worked up to Monarch so far. With the Greek you may have a more convincing arguement - a defense of a 3 is better than (or matches) anything until musketmen for 20 shields. Not too bad a price for a defender than can outclass a swordsman or even a knight. I don't know that I would plan an offense campaign against someone with that in mind. But I might welcome a defensive war for promotions and leader fishing.

 

[Hellfiredoom]

In the early game I still flip back and forth between building spearmen or warriors. Spearmen obviously have double the defense but cost twice as much. Warriors act as a better defender simply by adding to your "power" rating and reducing the AIs chances to attack or make demands.

 

[Raliuven]

If you want something with a defense of a 2 - build swordsmen. The only time I might build spearmen is if I have no iron and can't get it, or if to accompany swordsmen to absorb a counterattack so my swords are fresh to take an objective. Then the spears can stay behind and heal in the conquered town. As I said, the Greek are a different situation - though I still would not use them to attack. I won't say I would NEVER attack with them, but I would have to be pretty despreate to waste a hoplite like that.

Likewise, I rarely attack with a defensive unit. The exception might be when infantry are available but before tanks. At that time, infantry and cavalry have the same attack value. I still rarely attack with them because they can't retreat if they are losing. But I can see where this stragey has its place. And lets face it - an infantry fortified on a mountain is much better use of its time - particularly if there are 4 of them fortified in enemy lands and the AI just can't stand to leave them alone. Even better if they are on a strategic resource or luxury and some combat workers have built a nice fortification for them to sleep in - though in my experience the AI will avoid combat with infantry on a hill or mountain, especially if they are in a fortress. Almost as good as an army.

 

[Opies]

swords -> knights -> cavs -> tanks

really should be all you need. Accompany with bombardment units of the current age if needed (personally I don't find value in anything before artillery).

I've also never been in a conquest/domination game that lasted beyond industrial age, so I can't comment on that attacking force although I assume it's just modern tanks and bombers