What went wrong with Civ V and what CivBE should avoid

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3. Health penalized players for settling in high-profit areas, like flood plains and served as a balance mechanism.

Actually there's no "such-as" about it; flood plains were the only "high-profit" areas penalised. The health system actively encouraged settling in wooded areas and avoiding jungle (not to mention connecting resources you wanted to settle near for their tile yield), so for the most part it merely reduced the penalty when you were doing what you would be doing anyway. That's not much of a balancing mechanism.
 
One thing that civ:be can solve is that devs doesn't make the error that civV devs did when they decide to keep the game less complex on the release,maybe to attract new players.that was a disaster,and it seem that civ:be will repeat this error has they have stated that they want to bring players of xcom games and from ios(for me that means a half made game on release that will be "fixed" with dlc)
 
One thing that civ:be can solve is that devs doesn't make the error that civV devs did when they decide to keep the game less complex on the release,maybe to attract new players.that was a disaster,and it seem that civ:be will repeat this error has they have stated that they want to bring players of xcom games and from ios(for me that means a half made game on release that will be "fixed" with dlc)

A very interesting remark.
We have to keep in mind though that Firaxis is interested in selling copies of the game, not in selling satisfaction with the game.

At the moment I have the feeling that they are trying the same thing as they did with Civ4:Col - to release something based on the old engine, making use of a well-established product name, but don't support this new version properly.

After all, as soon as you've bought your copy they already have your money,don't they?
Patches, DLC and expansions will only be planned if they want to make this game live for a longer period. Something which they obviously didn't plan for Civ4:Col, as most probably C5 was already in planning.

Now, why should this be different with BE? :mischief:
 
Now, why should this be different with BE?
Well, Colonization was in 2008 before Firaxis had real experience with DLC (and frankly, Colonization was a niche game without much room for expansion). Now I think they realize that DLC is an important element of revenue. However, I hope the Civ V vanilla experience has taught them that if you release an unpolished game, people will hesitate to give you more money for DLC. I didn't buy any Civ V DLC until about a year after release.

Only time will tell, of course.
 
A very interesting remark.
We have to keep in mind though that Firaxis is interested in selling copies of the game, not in selling satisfaction with the game.

At the moment I have the feeling that they are trying the same thing as they did with Civ4:Col - to release something based on the old engine, making use of a well-established product name, but don't support this new version properly.

After all, as soon as you've bought your copy they already have your money,don't they?
Patches, DLC and expansions will only be planned if they want to make this game live for a longer period. Something which they obviously didn't plan for Civ4:Col, as most probably C5 was already in planning.

Now, why should this be different with BE? :mischief:
I would guess if CBE sells several million copies than we'll see support and DLC in the future. If the install base is small then it's not worth continued support. Time would be my other question, and biggest concern. How soon will they switch to Civ VI? I'd suspect they wouldn't abandon this if it's a huge success but I don't know how they would find the time for that.
 
This game seems almost purposely designed to allow for future DLC. With how modular the opening sounds ther are plenty of options for small additions. They could add more factions, more planet types, more diversity of starting resources, more aliens, all in little packs for a little partition of cash on the part of us consumers.

If this does turn out to be big, an expansion may be on the cards, but i have no shadow of a doubt that we'll see some dlc for BE. It's just a no brainer.
 
I like how developers have properly identified and rettained the good of Civ V (UPT, wide VS tall, etc) in this BE, but yeah, there are many things from Civ V that I wouldn't like to see in Beyond Earth... or any civilization game ever. That is:

- Happiness as an expansion limitator is a failed game mechanic. Deal with it, and move on, Firaxis, please.

- Science design (no tech trading, science focus as the ultimate strategy, etc). I am intrigued by their "science as a web rather than as a tree" approach, so I am glad tha they are tacking this issue :)

- No diplomacy or whatsoever. Looking to the interviews of the developers, it seems that this will be the case, yet again. Urgh, why, good Lord, why?
 
I'd rather they actually test the game properly before it comes out so you don't have successive game-sweeping changes every single patch.

Seriously, I remember the Civ5 release, every patch completely upended how the game would flow.
 
The tech hierarchy in Endless Space isn't a web... it's four different, unconnected tech trees.
Also, the design intent seems to be different. Endless Space's four trees are clearly four categories of the gameplay (ship/ground combat, production/science, exploration/colonisation, money/diplomacy). Concentrating on a single tech pillar would leave you behind so much that you'd lose.

In contrast, Civ:BE's tech web seems to allow you to pick a strong focus into one direction, as the directions are not gameplay categories but thematic ones.
 
Also, the design intent seems to be different. Endless Space's four trees are clearly four categories of the gameplay (ship/ground combat, production/science, exploration/colonisation, money/diplomacy). Concentrating on a single tech pillar would leave you behind so much that you'd lose.

In contrast, Civ:BE's tech web seems to allow you to pick a strong focus into one direction, as the directions are not gameplay categories but thematic ones.
Endless Space done it wrong. 80% of all inventions were missile 2, missile 3 missile n+1, and same for buildings. More advanced version of the same building with occasional new feature across the tech web. That made research insanely boring and most players simply researched the same techs time and time again without any adjustments.
 
Here's a feedback from the creator of CivV about features and changes in V. Notice how he adreses a lot of isues stated in this very thread:
Jon Shafer
Below, I’ll be sharing the design lessons I learned during and after Civ 5′s development
Interface
My one disappointment with the UI was the general lack of “power features” tailored for hardcore fans. Ultimately, we didn’t end up with as many information overlays, screens or modes as I would have liked. One of my early goals was to have an alternate “expert” switch that you could flip, adding a significant quantity of detailed information to the screens and mouseovers. User-created mods have added this feature to both Civ 4 and Civ 5, but integrating it into the full games is obviously preferable.
Diplomacy
My original goal was for the AI leaders to act human. But humans are ambiguous, moody and sometimes just plain crazy. This can be interesting when you’re dealing with actual, real humans, but I learned the important lesson that when you’re simulating one with a computer there’s no way to make this fun. Any attempt to do so just turns into random, unproductive noise.

I came to realize that while diplomacy is a unique challenge, it’s ultimately still just a gameplay system just like any other. Regardless of whether your enjoyment is derived from roleplaying or simply a game’s core mechanics, if your opponents’ goals and behavior aren’t clear then you’ll have absolutely no idea what’s going on or what to do.

In Civ 5, you might have been lifelong allies with a leader, but once you enter the late-game he has no qualms backstabbing you in order to win. With this being the case, what’s the point of investing in relationships at all?

By no means should AI leaders be completely predictable. However, they do need a clear rhyme and reason behind their actions. The computer opponents in Civ 5 were completely enslaved to their gameplay situation, and as a result they appeared random and very little of their personalities shone through.

They were all crazy, and in the exact same way. In the months after the game was released I modified their behavior to be more predictable, but it was too late to completely change course. The biggest takeaway from this is that the only thing which matters in a game is the experience inside the player’s head. It doesn’t matter what your intentions are or what’s going on under the hood if the end result just isn’t fun.
AI
The AI in the base version of Civ 5 was… not as strong as it could be, shall we say.
Working on this system was another experience that taught me a great deal about design and development. I wrote the AI code that handled the computer opponents’ high-level strategic goals, economy and diplomacy.
Like most engineers, I really enjoy architecting elegant and flexible structures. Civ 5′s AI was a beautiful mesh of interwoven systems, and even included the ability to record virtually everything to a massive log file. Unfortunately, my enjoyment of building caused me to fall in love with the design rather than its actual impact. I was very proud of my code. But it really wasn’t very good.

Another problem with my AI was the randomness, which is something I’ve already talked about at length. The computer opponents were weighted towards a variety of possibilities, with a healthy serving of RNG (random number generator) on the side. This meant they floated from one “strategy” to another without any real cohesion behind those decisions. This approach is nice in theory, but if you want a strong AI there are times when you need to force it to behave in very specific manner.
Resources
One of the big changes I made to Civ 5 on the economic front was the shift from resources being “boolean” (where you either have them or you don’t) to “quantified,” where you can have zero of a single resource type, or two of it, or maybe eighteen. I still feel that making them quantified was a solid design decision, but for a variety of reasons the execution wasn’t everything I wanted it to be.
In Civ 5, players ended up with easy access to a bit of every resource and there was almost no reason to trade. In the real world, swapping goods is worthwhile because of the effects of supply and demand. In Civ 5 there was almost no demand since you could be virtually self-sufficient.
My removal of the health system in Civ 5 also had repercussions elsewhere. This greatly reduced the value of non-strategic resources (like wheat), and in retrospect it’s clear that I didn’t manage to fill that void with something else.
Another issue with the Civ 5 resources system was that the difference between having 2 and 5 Swordsmen isn’t really a big deal when compared with the possibility of not havingany Swordsmen. If I were able to go back and change the design I probably would have resources show up in more limited quantities and make the units and buildings they unlock much more unique and powerful.
Economics
My intention with the global happiness mechanic was to make it possible for smaller empires to compete with much larger ones. The problem was that a global metric butts heads with the natural cadence of the entire genre. I mean, the second X in 4X stands for “expansion” for crying out loud! I lost sight of this as I pursued other objectives.
The problem was that happiness strongly encouraged you to stay small and the penalties for not obliging with this demand were quite harsh. It was virtually impossible to build the large, sprawling empires which had always been a feature in the series and served as the entire point playing for many people. I still believe that there are ways to make smaller empires viable, but it shouldn’t come at the expense of those who enjoy expanding. Penalties should be challenges to overcome, not an insurmountable wall to be frustrated by.
My removal of the research/commerce/culture sliders also came with positives and negatives. I’ve always found fiddling with sliders in strategy games to be boring busywork, and in that sense I don’t miss them. But the sliders also had a hidden value that I didn’t realize until later – they gave players the ability to shift directions at any time. Unfortunately, once the sliders were gone players were basically permanently locked into their past economic choices. There was no way to sacrifice research in order to upgrade your army, for example. Rewarding long-term planning is certainly a worthy endeavor, but you still need to provide tools to allow players to change course when necessary.
Policies
I like both the Policies system featured in Civ 5 and the Civics system from Civ 4, which are simply two different takes on the same concept: the ability to shape the “character” of your empire. Both systems have their strengths and weaknesses, but I now find the design of Civics more appealing, because of that capacity to make sudden and dramatic shifts.
Combat
By far the most significant change I made with Civ 5 was to way in which wars were fought. Instead of large stacks of units crashing into one another as had always been the case in the previous Civ games, there was now 1UPT (one unit per tile). This forced players to spread out their armies across the landscape, instead of piling everything into a single tile.

This was a model very much inspired by the old wargame Panzer General. On the whole, I would say that the combat mechanics are indeed better in Civ 5 than in any other entry in the series. But as is the theme of this article, there’s a downside to consider as well.
One of the biggest challenges unearthed by 1UPT was writing a competent combat AI. I wasn’t the one who developed this particular AI subsystem, and the member of the team who was tasked with this did a great job of making lemonade out of the design lemons I’d given him. Needless to say, programming an AI which can effectively maneuver dozens of units around in extremely tactically-confined spaces is incredibly difficult.
Speaking of scale, another significant issue with 1UPT was that the maps wasn’t really suited for it. The joy of Panzer General was pulling off clever maneuvers and secretly encircling your helpless enemies. Unfortunately, in Civ 5 nasty bottlenecks aren’t uncommon and this tempers much of the natural value added by 1UPT. Ultimately, there just wasn’t enough room to do the fun part.
Speculation aside, the reality was that the congestion caused by 1UPT also impacted other parts of the game. In every prior Civ title it was no problem to have ten, fifty or even a thousand units under your control. Sure, larger numbers meant more to manage, but hotkeys and UI conveniences could alleviate much of the problem. But in Civ 5, every unit needed its own tile, and that meant the map filled up pretty quickly.

To address this, I slowed the rate of production, which in turn led to more waiting around for buckets to fill up. For pacing reasons, in the early game I might have wanted players to be training new units every 4 turns. But this was impossible, because the map would have then become covered in Warriors by the end of the classical era. And once the map fills up too much, even warfare stops being fun.
So is there a way to make 1UPT really work in a Civ game? Perhaps. The key is the map. Is there enough of room to stash units freely and slide them around each other? If so, then yes, you can do it. For this to be possible, I’d think you would have to increase the maximum map size by at least four times. You’d probably also want to alter the map generation logic to make bottlenecks larger and less common.
 
Endless Space done it wrong. 80% of all inventions were missile 2, missile 3 missile n+1, and same for buildings. More advanced version of the same building with occasional new feature across the tech web. That made research insanely boring and most players simply researched the same techs time and time again without any adjustments.
Also, Endless Space's tree goes in four directions (actually, it's just 4 different trees), but you can't really really choose one direction and go with it, as you'll still need items from all four trees. Better weapons were only found in one tree; larger hulls were only found in a different tree, and the one is not much use without the other. A long game will still result in you researching most or all of the techs. It sounds like in Beyond Earth you'll be able to pick a direction and go; there will will be different ways of getting the same kinds of benefits. Researching all or even most of the techs will probably not be possible.
 
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