What will be after 1.2.5

[stealth_nsk]

I think they kind of do? Some are less useful than others. Urban centers though have probably become significantly better than all the others in this patch IMO. Try a game as Carthage focussing on using them if you want the clearest example. I had no difficulty keeping up & overtaking the AI.

Yes, I did exactly this. What I meant is that since urban centers are so powerful now, other town types may need to be buffed, just not by allowing purchasing tier 2 buildings in them.

 

[Leucarum]

Yes, I did exactly this. What I meant is that since urban centers are so powerful now, other town types may need to be buffed, just not by allowing purchasing tier 2 buildings in them.

Oh that's not what I meant at all. Sorry if I wasn't clear. I think Urban Centers need to have less buildings they can build. Just divide the tier 1 buildings among different town types rather than having Urban Center build them all. I don't think Tier 2 buildings should be available outside of cities.

 

[stealth_nsk]

Oh that's not what I meant at all. Sorry if I wasn't clear. I think Urban Centers need to have less buildings they can build. Just divide the tier 1 buildings among different town types rather than having Urban Center build them all. I don't think Tier 2 buildings should be available outside of cities.

I see now, yes, this could make sense.

While writing this reply I actually wrote and erased a lot about how this could work and which problems it may have. In general I think it's a question of balance and multi-dimensional strategic decisions (because town/city divide and town specialization are one of the core decisions in Civ7). I guess it's impossible to do such things on paper right, it's a question of multiple iterations and testing, from which we already saw a couple and will surely see more in the future.

 

[Leucarum]

I see now, yes, this could make sense.

While writing this reply I actually wrote and erased a lot about how this could work and which problems it may have. In general I think it's a question of balance and multi-dimensional strategic decisions (because town/city divide and town specialization are one of the core decisions in Civ7). I guess it's impossible to do such things on paper right, it's a question of multiple iterations and testing, from which we already saw a couple and will surely see more in the future.

Firaxis have taken the first step - making us want towns. Now they just need to get us thinking about what type of town. It's going to be very iterative.

 

[marius_kaparius]

There is a mention of 1.3.0 and an Earth Map in the game files so that's a decent bet.

I actually think Earth Map and Hotseat together might capture or recapture a specific segment of the audience. I'm enjoying 1.2.5 but I'd love to run a hotseat game with my two daughters. They've both individually played the game and it would make nice memories.

 

[magicq99]

But yeah, once you get to the late exploration or modern, especially with the increased base yields, adjacencies are starting to feel a little weak. With bonuses and policy cards, if my choice is a +8 observatory or a +9 observatory, and my civ is pulling in 450 science a turn, that's not really worth it. Even if you packed in 4 specialists, that extra adjacency is only worth like 3 science total, which might even be less than the base science yield from overbuilding. Never mind the "hidden" yields like the +1 science per quarter that you get from a university, you really start getting some very diminishing returns on placement and how much the map matters.

My interpretation is that the diminishing returns of tile-based adjacencies is intentional. It reminds me a bit of the districts in Civ VI, which got the largest yields from adjacencies in earlier ages. But over time the yields of the buildings became more important in Civ VI.

It is now a bit similar in VII. A well placed library in antiquity might get +2/+3 science from 2 or 3 resources on top of the base yield of 3, which in the best case doubles the yield. If you now place a school house on the same tile in the modern age, you still get the same +2/+3 from the resources, but that is at best only 1/3 on top of the base yield of 9 science. So the buildings become more important over time, just like in a Civ VI district.

I would also note that in the modern age you may have up to four unique buildings from the previous ages permanently placed, many of which give adjacencies from other buildings and not terrain features. You can therefore place buildings to maximize the yields of a unique quarter instead of the building itself. So the map may matter less, but instead the interaction between the buildings themselves matters a bit more for maximum yields.

 

[marius_kaparius]

My interpretation is that the diminishing returns of tile-based adjacencies is intentional. It reminds me a bit of the districts in Civ VI, which got the largest yields from adjacencies in earlier ages. But once you had built all three buildings in a district, most of the yields came from the buildings in Civ VI.

It is now a bit similar in VII. A well placed library in antiquity might get +2/+3 science from 2 or 3 resources on top of the base yield of 3, which in the best case doubles the yield. If you now place a school house on the same tile in the modern age, you still get the same +2/+3 from the resources, but that is at best only 1/3 on top of the base yield of 9 science.

I would also note that in the modern age you may have up to four unique buildings from the previous ages permanently placed, many of which give adjacencies from other buildings and not terrain features. You can therefore place buildings to maximize the yields of a unique quarter instead of the building itself. So the map may matter less, but instead the interaction between the buildings themselves matters a bit more.

Specialists put some legs on the adjacency bonuses though. I do wonder if the concept wouldn't "pop" a little more if it was the full adjacency instead of just half of it.

 

[magicq99]

Specialists put some legs on the adjacency bonuses though. I do wonder if the concept wouldn't "pop" a little more if it was the full adjacency instead of just half of it.

I agree. However, considering specialists boost the adjacency from both buildings in a district and can be further boosted by social policies, they may be too strong if they provided the full adjacency of each building.

 

[Evolena]

Maybe it's also a UI consequence... When all your specialists grant a base +5 Science +2 Culture +2 whatever (from base, civ/leader bonus, policy, wonder...), that other +3 from the real adjacencies over the 2 buildings are less visible.

 

[UWHabs]

Oh that's not what I meant at all. Sorry if I wasn't clear. I think Urban Centers need to have less buildings they can build. Just divide the tier 1 buildings among different town types rather than having Urban Center build them all. I don't think Tier 2 buildings should be available outside of cities.

Maybe a balance (taking the exploration era as an example)
Fort Town: Dungeon
Urban Centre: Kiln, Observatory
Resort Town: Inn
Farming/Fishing: Wharf
Mining: Armorer
Trade Outpost: Guildhall
Religious Site:
Hub Town: Bazaar

You'd have other balance needed - the hub town is still one of the strongest as is, adding a new building to it would help it even more. Or maybe fishing towns get the Wharf while farming towns get the inn alongside resort towns. And then at least the urban centre still gets probably the 2 most valuable ones, but it doesn't get all the others.

 

[Leucarum]

Maybe a balance (taking the exploration era as an example)
Fort Town: Dungeon
Urban Centre: Kiln, Observatory
Resort Town: Inn
Farming/Fishing: Wharf
Mining: Armorer
Trade Outpost: Guildhall
Religious Site:
Hub Town: Bazaar

You'd have other balance needed - the hub town is still one of the strongest as is, adding a new building to it would help it even more. Or maybe fishing towns get the Wharf while farming towns get the inn alongside resort towns. And then at least the urban centre still gets probably the 2 most valuable ones, but it doesn't get all the others.

I mean I don't think I'd put any of the Tier 2 buildings in there (e.g. Armorer) but something along those lines I think would be healthy to add. Urban Center is just really, really, really good right now.

 

[Krikkit1]

Oh that's not what I meant at all. Sorry if I wasn't clear. I think Urban Centers need to have less buildings they can build. Just divide the tier 1 buildings among different town types rather than having Urban Center build them all. I don't think Tier 2 buildings should be available outside of cities.

So essentially no Urban Center. (or Maybe Urban Center can build Science and Culture Tier1)
Farms/Fish can get Tier1 Food
Mines can get Tier1 Production
Fort can get Tier1 Military
Trade can get Tier1 Gold
Resort can get Tier1 Happy

 

[Porry]

So there will be a new "commerce hub", maybe in the next update? Without any details, I would assume that this relates to resource assignment and trade routes?

True, that was also a goal. In theory, they should revise the entire resource management part. As it is now, it's too cumbersome, especially without a mouse to manage it. Let's hope so, because resource management is one of the cornerstones of Civ 7.

 

[Leucarum]

So essentially no Urban Center. (or Maybe Urban Center can build Science and Culture Tier1)
Farms/Fish can get Tier1 Food
Mines can get Tier1 Production
Fort can get Tier1 Military
Trade can get Tier1 Gold
Resort can get Tier1 Happy

Yeah, I'm not sure what that would leave urban center with which is awkward. But I think it's too good at the moment. I want to pick it 90% of the time

 

[Krikkit1]

Yeah, I'm not sure what that would leave urban center with which is awkward. But I think it's too good at the moment. I want to pick it 90% of the time

They could also nerf it a bit. say have the buildings cost 20,50,100% more? to buy ... so its still a "city that doesn't make your Other settlements buildings more expensive" .... but you might need some mining towns to support it itself.

 

[UWHabs]

Urban center without any maintenance reduction would still be a useful specialization. It does almost work out to give all the other types one of the tier 1 buildings, and then the Urban Center still gets the T1 science and culture buildings. If that weakens them too much, you could give them something else too (+1 gold per connected settlement?)

 

[Leucarum]

You could make Urban Center a "wild card" i.e. you can build a single tier 1 building and a single matching tier 2 building, but that's your lot! But that might make it more powerful TBH.

Is there a way to mimic Humankind and specifically attach a town to a city? Maybe they could add to the cost of their attached city?

 

[Krikkit1]

Urban center without any maintenance reduction would still be a useful specialization. It does almost work out to give all the other types one of the tier 1 buildings, and then the Urban Center still gets the T1 science and culture buildings. If that weakens them too much, you could give them something else too (+1 gold per connected settlement?)

The issue is you want the Specialization to have ongoing effects, not just "can buy" because that means it's "switch to Urban Center, buy buildings, back to Growth"

I think keeping it Special... ie the only one able to buy Tier 1 Buildings would be good, just say an increased Cost to buy them and keep the Maintenance Reduction so there is a reason to keep them that way (and that makes them a good thing to do with Ex Cities that you will eventually make cities again... reduce the cost of those buildings so that it is less of a drag on your transition treasury,)

 

[stealth_nsk]

So essentially no Urban Center. (or Maybe Urban Center can build Science and Culture Tier1)
Farms/Fish can get Tier1 Food
Mines can get Tier1 Production
Fort can get Tier1 Military
Trade can get Tier1 Gold
Resort can get Tier1 Happy

I don't like this unification. Looks pretty boring and very likely to have lead to some no-brainer decisions. I'd prefer just tuning other towns as they are now to match average strength of urban centers to create some kind of dynamic balance.

 

[TheMarshmallowBear]

We know new resources are coming, and with the hint of Ottomans it looks that the leaked file may indeed be the next plan, so I assume that next pass will contain the free-standing civs and leaders with Naval/Pirate theme, which may line up with the references found in 1.3.0, and then 1.4.0 may indeed be Atomic Age.