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What would you do next? (War plans)

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Strategy & Tips' started by JamesCivFan, May 15, 2014.

  1. JamesCivFan

    JamesCivFan King

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    Alright, guys. In my current game (China, Deity, Standard/Standard, Pangaea), I have trouble deciding what's my next move going to be. I wanna go Domination.

    As you will see in the first screenshot, I already took out Morocco's capital and 2nd city, with Petra, Hagia Sophia (I also snatched his free GP and settled it) and Angkor Wat in the former, the Parthenon in the latter. My army is a bit small (8 CKNs, 2 Swordsmen, 1 Pikeman, 1 Horseman) but I managed to do it. I'm not doing too bad regarding science (never been unhappy before in the game so I was close to 200bpt, just now that I took his 2nd city I fell a bit). I'm allied with 4 CS, and friends with a 5th one. I was lucky and got the Celts' religion, which has Jesuit Education, so I managed to buy up a university in Shanghai. I'll probably spit out 2-3 missionaries before going to Scientific Theory, so I can buy Public Schools using faith.

    However, I don't know if I should continue, or wait. If I should make peace with Morocco or train my units more. Policy-wise, I went full Tradition, finishing the Tree on T80 with 3 cities. Then, I opened up commerce and took another Policy from it (Mercenary Army). I also opened up Rationalism and I'm planning to take Secularism, then take two more policies on the right side of Commerce. I did not take Honor, because I am not sure whether I should continue fighting now or not.

    In the 2nd screenshot, I'm showing you the only plausible next target, England. There's no one to the left of Morocco, and there's Washington to my right side, but he has the GW, so I'm not gonna bother with him until late game with Artillery.

    So, what would you do next if you were me?
     

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  2. Fluffball

    Fluffball Warlord

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    I wouldn't make peace with Morocco at least until you get into another war as that is just free xp for your units and it looks like Morocco still has at least 3 cities...Fez, the one just off the left side of the 1st SS and one in the fog above Fez and to the left of Canterbury. I would take at least 2 more of them and simply burn them if you can't take the happiness hit etc. With 3 decent sized cities they can easily become a threat in your rear while engaging in another war.

    I notice Canterbury is in a pretty good defensive position especially as Bratislava is allied to England which makes attacking England tricky.
    If you can steal Bratislava or at least neutralise it's units then you can circle round the back of Canterbury for an easier attack but unless you ally Bratislava it could still be tricky with those hills and general bottle neck if England has any decent army at all as it will be hard to bring a superior force into play even on a local level and you won't be able to move units through that area without at least one of the cities taking pot shots at you on the way through.

    From the map and situation i can see i would weaken Morocco more by taking at least a couple of extra cities while saving gold to ally Bratislava so i can push a large force through that area once you got enough happiness to capture London and possibly Canterbury depending on what you uncover about England.e.g. does she have more cities.
    You can then easily move on Warsaw
     
  3. JamesCivFan

    JamesCivFan King

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    You made some good points there. I should provide some extra info. England is one of the first civs in terms of military power right now (Longbows come to mind), so it's gonna be tough taking her swiftly. I only have 1 CKN with the Range promotion. If I had at least 3-4, I'd be able to hit her too. But those Longbows make it difficult. Allying Bratislava is an excellent idea, since they want a GM, Copper (which I could trade with England, if I find out whom she's trading her extra copies with). They also want fast teching, and since we're on Deity, I don't know if I can pull that one off...

    Last but not least, I am Friends with Poland, for another 20 turns. They're pretty much the only Civ that likes me. England is also friendly, all the others are neutral. No denunciations yet, but I feel America will hate me soon. You're right about continuing the war with Morocco. Fes has Mt. Kailash which is awesome for acquiring more FPT.
    I'm a bit scared about happiness. Maybe I shouldn't have gone Rationalism, but I should have continued on the right side of Commerce?

    Keep the advice coming! Thanks a lot!
     
  4. Væringjar

    Væringjar Warlord

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    Finish your job, eliminate Morocco. Then take Poland's city which close to you. Then become ally of Colombo. Colombo will be buffer zone between you and main Polish cities. After that attack England.
     
  5. Moriarte

    Moriarte Immortal

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    Don't take Lodz, Colombo will do it for you. Produce a couple units and leave them near Lodz; march the rest of the crowd straight under the walls of Warsaw. With 39 city strength Chuko's will tear it apart. Just make sure you get 3-4 more and some melee/knights. While you march, pay Casimir to kill someone, preferably England. :devil: Terrain is easy near Warsaw and you'll open a good flank towards England. No downside.

    So it's time to start pre-building that road. ;) [edit: something you should have done, before capturing Morocco]

    Don't adopt honor though, full commerce is much stronger. For your cause.

    edit#2: One more thing you can try to do - try getting Fes in a peace deal and exchanging it with England for millions of cash and war against Casimir. She will build a road to Fes, which might prove quite useful later on.
     
  6. JamesCivFan

    JamesCivFan King

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    Goddammit, it completely slipped my mind, building the road towards Morocco I mean. The thing is, when I started marching towards him, his 2nd city had 34 city strength, and his capital had only 26, so I thought to take the capital first. But as soon as I arrived, he built a castle and it also went up to 34. I should have built a road and take his 2nd city first. I would have saved at least 10 turns. Lessons learned: always build a road towards the civ you wanna DoW and never skip a city in the way for the capital.

    About Lods, I'm thinking the same thing as you. Build a couple of units, leave them near it, let Colombo weaken it, then capture it and if it's really good keep it, otherwise sell it to England for a lot of gold. Of course I'll bribe Poland to DoW everyone in sight, starting with England. I guess Poland is much better as the next target.

    His gpt is in the minus, and since we have a DoF, I made sure to get all his lump sums, to leave him with less science and soldiers. I think I can "wait" until the DoF expires while I'm taking Fes, and building the damn road this time, then attack him right away. England comes right after that.

    On a side note: how many siege units will I need to build before going for Dynamite? 5-6 artillery are enough to take a civ down, when the time comes? Thanks a lot for your insight. Always helpful. Also, thanks to everyone else as well!

    Edit: Alright. After checking up Poland, I saw the following: he has the Statue of Zeus, the GL and the Mausoleum of Halicarnassus. Our DoF will expire in 8 turns, which is perfect timing. However, he doesn't wanna declare on Lizzy, no matter how much I try to pay him. Lizzy doesn't wanna DoW him either... I'll try to figure something else out. But I guess he should be my target anyway.

    Edit 2: I didn't even need to move a muscle to conquer Morocco, as he came with a nice peace deal, giving me two of his 3 remaining cities, including Fes. I took them both, and sold his little city to England for the piece deal you will see in the screenshot. Poland's turn is getting close.
     

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  7. JamesCivFan

    JamesCivFan King

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    Update. T184 now, almost at Dynamite, I followed Moriarte's advice and built a road to Warsaw (actually, since Poland had that city near my borders, they tried to connect it to their empire, so half the road was done and was being paid by them). Then, I took Lodz within 2 turns, I gifted it to England immediately and marched towards Warsaw. It took me about 5 turns or so to capture it.

    Amazing city, with a filled GL with theming bonus and the Statue of Zeus to boot. Thank you, Moriarte!

    PS. Is T190 Dynamite acceptable on Deity? Note that I timed the Oxford to give me Radio, in order to be the first to take Autocracy and I also timed it to fall right on the turn where I would normally acquire a SP, so I took 2 tenets from lvl 1 for free and one tenet from level 2 immediately. That held me back on Commerce, though...
     
  8. Moriarte

    Moriarte Immortal

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    I am glad it all worked out. :) Send us a couple screenshots of further progress. I feel like playing with the Chinese too now. Only played them once before - in vanilla.

    It depends. Sometimes t250 dynamite is acceptable. What you want to check is the literacy rates in demographics. If you are within 5-7% of the world leader in science - you have nothing to worry about. From your first screenshot it looks like only Russian cossacks could give you trouble.

    I never build more for one army.. Even on huge maps. Besides you will have beastly gatlings and cavalry to support them. Not much else will be needed until the flight arrives.

    EDIT: While you mess with Liz it might be a good idea to pre-build a road from Warsaw to Celtic lands.
     
  9. JamesCivFan

    JamesCivFan King

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    Right. Screenshots incoming. I already have 4 siege units, and as you will see, I am 8 techs away from Dynamite, but also 8 techs away from the PT. Meaning, I'll burn the GS immediately for Dynamite.

    Who needs Oxford when you have World Wonders?

    Now, I suppose it's a given that I should attack England, right? Looking at info addict, I saw that she's making 540 bpt, almost as good as me. She also went full Patronage and she has started being really annoying with CS. I'm going to use my level 3 spy to steal Bratislava and Manila (which is close to the old Moroccan cities, and I don't want any surprises.)

    About Dynamite research turns. Since I only do not know 2 techs that she knows, one of them definitely being Navigation (see those SoTL?), I guess the other one is Fertilizer or something like that. She's really behind now. The rest are laughably behind. The Russians are 3rd in terms of bpt and they're only making 340-something.

    PS. Artillery with +30% from the Chinese GGs and another 15% from the SoZ? Count me in. China's awesome.

    EDIT: Just saw your last tip about the road. Good idea. I'll send off two workers from Warsaw to do it. It'll go through Colombo, so I won't have to pay much.
     

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  10. Cromagnus

    Cromagnus Deity

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    Honestly, if it were me I would restart, not because the game isn't salvageable, but because t140 is really missing the boat to capture your first city with a CKN army on Deity. If you're attempting to win with Cho-Ko-Nu, you should be aiming to do this:

    1) Capture your first city with composite bows around t80-90
    2) Upgrade to CKN around t100
    3) Get the Range Promotion by t110
    4) Win by t150

    Otherwise, well, you'll stall out exactly as you did and be forced to salvage a late artillery win. Which could very likely come too late and turn into a late bomber win. ;)

    However, if you're bound and determined to continue, I'd focus 100% on science and try to win with bombers. T200 artillery is a bit late. But, given you're #2 in science, the AI isn't doing too well either. So, you might pull it off. Moriarte is better at salvaging games than I am though. ;)
     
  11. JamesCivFan

    JamesCivFan King

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    About the 4th point (the others seem logical): how do you win at T150 on Deity, Pangaea with 8 Civs? It's just impossible to have so many units in so little time, and even beat civs like America in my game, where they are tucked away behind rough terrain with the Great Wall. I had to wait for Artillery to come around to attack them. It's just not doable. Plus, I hate restarting, just because a game is slow. Even if it takes nukes to win, I'll fight and win the match. I used to restart a lot when I saw that a game is going slowly, but I realized it's not fun like that. You won't always have optimal games, where you get lucky with ruins, you can do a CB rush to your first neighbor, who will have nice wonders built for you, etc.

    Of course, never say "never". I'd love to see some screenshots of people who have done it on T150. Do you have any links, please? :)
     
  12. Moriarte

    Moriarte Immortal

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    Incidentally, hall of fame competition is currently underway:

    t. 176 by Tabarnak in this thread. (w. screenshots)

    No, no. :) Not nearly as good as Maddjinn, who was cranking out 200 bpt on turn 200, and being generally confident in his domination win with deity Venice. He did win with A bombs, eventually, if i recall right.

    Or the India cultural game. t.200 - 26 tourism, 200 beakers. No problem. Wins in 300's, by denying Alex a diplo win being himself on a continent "filled" with Shaka.

    There is certainly plenty of leeway in deity BNW compared to deity Vanilla, bar cases of extreme early runaways.

    Agree with you, James - you got to fight and win.
     
  13. Cromagnus

    Cromagnus Deity

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    Well, it's not always possible. Map luck is a huge factor. But, given that, doesn't it make sense to plan to start your war at artillery? If you play peaceful prior to artillery, you'll get artillery sooner, which means you have a greater chance of finishing before the AI out-techs artillery.

    Here's how I look at it. Oversimplifying things, war slows down tech. Units become outdated. So, you have a narrow window from when you start fighting to win, whether it's artillery or archers. Unlike almost any other unit line though, archers have a smooth upgrade curve, so you can cheaply upgrade them without losing steam. This is true until Gatlings, when the loss of range really hurts. So basically you have 150 turns to win with those units. If you only have 1 or 2 opponents left, you can sometimes keep the momentum going with gatlings until t200. But, If you attack *at all*, you start a timer. You're putting yourself in a tech hole. (vs playing peaceful initially)

    So, if you're going to attack it's all in. Or at least, it's "mostly in". You can take a few capitals, then focus on tech again for another 50-100 turns and repeat. But this strategy is less efficient than picking an era and going all in. And really, the only reason attack->tech->attack works at all on Deity IMHO is that the AI is so hapless no game is ever over until someone launches on t310+. :p

    Anyway, picking an era is (logically) more efficient because you maximize your tech advantage while you have it. And since not all units are equally effective, that basically looks like archer line, artillery or bombers on pangaea. If you're hardcore, you can try going against that grain but it's somewhat masochistic.

    Also, it's important to note that, because on Deity the AI starts out with a tech, unit, gold and production lead, early rush is heavily disadvantaged. But, they don't have nearly as many cities as they will later. So, early war is a rush to kill them off before they plant a bunch of cities. It's *such* a rush, in fact, that movement rate becomes the primary factor. The number of turns until a unit becomes outdated is limited primarily by movement rate. This is why Attila & Egypt are the king of early Deity rush. Early strong ranged units with no required resource and lots of moves.

    Artillery don't get outdated nearly as fast because they can stay out of range and use indirect fire. But even then, movement rate is a huge factor. This is why building roads to your enemies is so effective. Like Artillery, CKN with Range are easier to keep alive, but it's trickier.

    Early rush on deity (IE pre-industrial win) is hard to do reliably, with the exception of certain civs. I'm pretty close to 100% on standard/standard/pangaea with Attila, but with most civs, it's a matter of luck.

    So, back to my point. If you don't like relying on luck, then a peaceful tech-focused artillery beeline is really the best strategy for pangaea. The next truly effective assault unit doesn't come until bombers and then you're basically going for a science victory for 200 turns. The whole attack->tech->attack cycle is fairly nerfed right now because of the diplomatic changes in BNW, especially since the last patch. Not that it's impossible, but for me, it feels like masochism to play out those games sometimes.

    Anyway, if you're wanting to use cho-ko-nu, you have a narrow window. For diplomatic reasons, and to ensure you get some wonders, you shouldn't capture too early, and you can only continue fighting with them for so long. Since any amount of conquest puts you in a tech (and happiness) hole on Deity, if you're going to fight with CKN *at all*, you should be in it to win it. IMHO.

    Luckily, China (along with England and Persia) is one of the best civs for archer line rush. So it's slightly less about luck. However, the strength nerf on CKN makes England better IMHO. (Not to mention the extra spy to get you out of that tech hole!)

    Don't get me wrong, half the fun of playing with China is the CKN. But Deity is balanced such that the AI starts out strong and gets weaker, so early units are nerfed. That's just how it is. Not to discourage you from trying! But, if you want to truly take advantage of CKN, you gotta go all in. IMHO. :)

    Personally, I think the CKN nerf was misguided. It was a band-aid on the more general problem created by the buff they gave city defense, namely that the archer line is vastly superior to all other pre-Industrial units now. But I digress. You can win with CKN. If you focus on those 4 points, you'll find it a more reliable strategy than you might think. Take the current G-Major for example. Byzantium hardly has an advantage when it comes to cb/xb rush. If she can do it, China can too! ;)
     
  14. Moriarte

    Moriarte Immortal

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    Yep. The tech hit is so extreme, actually, it may mean a 50 turn difference to reach artillery if you take too many cities too early. Still, one can take a city or two with CKN's and unlock dynamite around t.150. This balances things out between role playing aspect (CKN!) and actually being smart about what not to do.

    Well, the nerf wasn't directed at CKN (and most other early units for that matter), but it surely backfired that way. Introduction of religion, and then the tech. penalty really make a joke of some games, where 6 out of 7 AI's compete for who gets the Great Mosque of Djenne first, racing for reformation beliefs, on top of that.

    For war, the problem is tech. penalty, of course. And warmonger hate, to a lesser extent. The former problem hurts AI much more than it hurts human, provided human knows how many cities he is permitted to keep and when he should start aggressive expansion.
     
  15. JamesCivFan

    JamesCivFan King

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    I see. Well, yeah. I wanted to use CKN, because I'm playing China. Otherwise, I'd stay at 3-4 cities with Tradition (or tommynt's way of hybrid Lib/Trad playing, which is also a good way to play if you want to start "acting" late game) and start spiting out siege units to have let's say 10 artillery by T160, ready to go along with a few horse, fast units with extra sight. I just wasn't going for a fast victory per se. :)

    Also, I ain't the best player out there. You, Moriarte, (the old?) MadDjinn, Tommynt, Tabarnak come to mind as top tier players. I don't think I'd ever be able to pull of a T150 victory. Well, not ever, but definitely not soon. In any case, now America attacked me, before I was able to attack England, and he started bringing Rifles into my territory. So I had to build more Artillery to take him down as well. England is a GWI now, but she still wastes hammers on SoTLs, so maybe she's doable with a 2nd Artillery army (which is ready to attack at the moment). I'll see how that works out!
     
  16. JamesCivFan

    JamesCivFan King

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    I'm checking this one out. Pretty interesting staff. Tabarnak is a beast. :lol:

    EDIT: Update. I lost the game. Well, not lost but it would be too tedious to go on. I took Washington after god knows how many turns, but then England already was at flight. Also, there was no oil to be found on the map. Neither in my borders, nor in my CS allies' borders. Lizzy's GWBs were devastating, killing off my artillery and I just couldn't keep up. I had to wait to somehow acquire oil (I had pretty much every CS allied, except for 3-4. Zero oil. 0. Nothing. Nada. I should have fought off England, ignoring America until Liz has been taken out. But even then, I have no idea how I'd get oil. Liz had some in the water (unimproved of course) so I'd had to go Refrigeration. Too tedious. I'll try again with China and either go CB --> CKN rush, or wait till Artillery, so I won't have to go through this tediousness again. This 5% raise in tech costs for every city you own is utterly silly, by the way. Thank you all for your advice!
     
  17. Moriarte

    Moriarte Immortal

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    It appears Cro was right. Yet i think you just want to restart and atomic warfare could solve all the troubles. ;) That, and the fact that you went after Americans before killing English. (If i understood it correctly)
     
  18. JamesCivFan

    JamesCivFan King

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    Yes. That's correct. I went after the Americans first. But Washington now is actually going to hold me back due to the 5% penalty. The game could still be salvagable, but I think I learned from my mistakes now and I will do better next time. Matter of fact, I popped up another game as China, and followed Cromagnus' advice. The Byzantine capital (first neighbor) fell on T62. I'll keep harrassing their other 2 cities until xbows and go on from there. If I manage to win, I'll post here. :)
     
  19. Cromagnus

    Cromagnus Deity

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    I was talking about when they specifically reduced the strength of CKN (but not xbows) to make them less uber. It just proved that Logistics was overpowered IMHO.

    Also, I find it hard to hit Artillery by t150 playing peaceful, let alone while warmongering! But I suppose if you take *the right cities* with CKN, a few capitals (with universities and wonders) can really help, true. I just find it easier to play peaceful and trade, plus that way I get a round of RAs to boost me to Artillery.

    Also, I second Moriarte's Liberty recommendation. War = production. Liberty = production. Tradition = Growth. Big cities just hurt your happiness during war, so Tradition isn't that great unless you're very careful to only grow the capital. Tabarnak is kind of the expert on that though. I'm not very good at Tradition-based warfare. I know it can be done, I just find it much easier with Liberty. Especially if you get the Pyramids...
     
  20. Moriarte

    Moriarte Immortal

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    I see. Never noticed they adjusted CKN.
     

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