What's missing, unit-wise?

[damerell]

I've been reading back through old threads, and there are a few that discuss units which players feel are missing from the game. I'd be interested to collate opinions on those. The ones that sparked this in me were:

A "bombard" between trebuchets and cannon.
Coal-fired ocean-going ships; one between Ship of the Line and Battleship, one between Galleon and Transport, and perhaps one between Frigate and Destroyer?
Arguably also a "man of war" between the Trireme and Frigate (it ought to be a "galleon" except, oops, that's taken...)

I know there's a bit of a risk here in that before you know where you are you've got six flavours of pre-dreadnought, but I do (obviously) feel the sparseness of the naval tech tree. So, CFC types, what do you think is missing?

 

[Bucephalus]

I've been reading back through old threads, and there are a few that discuss units which players feel are missing from the game. I'd be interested to collate opinions on those. The ones that sparked this in me were:

A "bombard" between trebuchets and cannon.
Coal-fired ocean-going ships; one between Ship of the Line and Battleship, one between Galleon and Transport, and perhaps one between Frigate and Destroyer?
Arguably also a "man of war" between the Trireme and Frigate (it ought to be a "galleon" except, oops, that's taken...)

I know there's a bit of a risk here in that before you know where you are you've got six flavours of pre-dreadnought, but I do (obviously) feel the sparseness of the naval tech tree. So, CFC types, what do you think is missing?

All of those things are addressed in Legends of Revolution.

 

[damerell]

All of those things are addressed in Legends of Revolution.

Yes... along with about eighty-six other things (including umpteen pre-dreadnoughts). That's exactly what I don't want. I'm not suggesting these are new ideas; just curious as to what people see as the most gaping holes, the ones that could be filled while leaving the game still recognisably BTS.

 

[Ambidexter]

There's obviously a need for a predreadnaught between ship of the line and battleship. Plus I think there should be an oceangoing armored cruiser coming after ironclads. For that matter, a cruiser, midway in power and cost between a destroyer and a battleship, would be nice.

But as Bucephalus points out, there are mods which have all these things and more.

 

[noto2]

No I agree with the OP. I don't want to play a mod with a bajillion additions to the game, but a few additions would drastically improve it. It's true, the gap between trebs and cannons is too big. There should be a bombard unit, perhaps strength 8, around gunpowder, and the gap between sail/ironclads and destroyers is ridiculous as well.

 

[strijder20]

No I agree with the OP. I don't want to play a mod with a bajillion additions to the game, but a few additions would drastically improve it. It's true, the gap between trebs and cannons is too big. There should be a bombard unit, perhaps strength 8, around gunpowder, and the gap between sail/ironclads and destroyers is ridiculous as well.

Legends of Revolution doesn't add a bazillion things to the game, and you can even turn off some components.

 

[bitplayer]

Wouldn't mind seeing a biplane in game. Zeppelins are in I know but they don't really have the flavor a biplane would bring to the table imo.

 

[reddishrecue]

The non-mod version has ironclads which fall between the ship of the line and destroyer. The bombard is in all siege and ships.

 

[Tlalynet]

A far older version of Wolfshanze Mod would have covered things nicely without going overboard. There was a stage where all that was really added where a few leaderheads and the following.

Battering Ram (ancient siege, only damages city defence)

Bombard

Dreadnought era ships. (A transport, a slower battleship, and a faster destroyer type ship)

Better WWI air, and better air combat mechanics in general. Light bombers to base on Aircraft Carriers ect.

Unfortunately some of the models he got had way to many polygons and caused crashes. He aslo got into the 'add everything' mode before he started fixing it, so there really was no ideal version of his Mod to play, it was either incomplete, unstable, or overdone.

LOR incorporates his work and fixed it up very well. It also adds much else. I actually have LOR on my desktop, but I never play it, it is just too much MOAR and I don't want to be bothered configuring it. I also don't particularly like the revolution mechanic. Its good in concept, but more "what the hell, I lost 4 cities because I cranked up the science slider and ran a deficit for a few turns" frustrating than fun.

 

[Dr.Null]

On the naval side, I'd like to see:

- Outrigger / Canoe (available at Fishing): 1 , 2 , can pillage, carries 1 unit with restrictions as Caravel. Barbarians spawn these instead of Galleys until someone discovers Optics.

- Armored Frigate (available with Astronomy + Military Science + Steel): 12 , 4 , replaces Ship of the Line. (Ironclad can stay so Culture players aren't pillaged to death, and Ironclads upgrade to Armored Frigates.)

- Torpedo Boat (available with Combustion): 20 (+50% vs. Submarines, can't see Submarines), 6 , gains 2 first strikes, postpones Destroyer.

- Transport (available with Combustion): as normal.

- Destroyer (available with Artillery + Combustion + Radio): otherwise as normal.

- Battleship (available with Artillery + Industrialization): otherwise as normal. It'd be cool if they could bombard nearby units and tiles like a Bomber does, but the AI might not be able to cope with that well.

With Rocketry, all ships gain access to "SAM 1 / 2" promotion which gives +20% / +30% interception. Bombers lose their anti-ship penalty.

- - -

I'd like to see more pure defense units than just the Machine Gun, too. Something like Phalanx -> Pike Square -> Culverin (with Gunpowder) -> Machine Gun. Maybe these should replace Spearmen, because who the heck attacks a city with Spearmen?

 

[damerell]

A far older version of Wolfshanze Mod would have covered things nicely without going overboard. There was a stage where all that was really added where a few leaderheads and the following.

Call me Mister Unreasonable, but when Hitler's bonce turns up and the German unit flag's a swastika, I tend to be a little less than keen on sticking with a mod.

Also, as you mention, I don't really need a hojillion polygons on something which, from my point of view, could equally well be an abstract icon.

 

[ChaosSlayer]

I am currently working on my own mod with a goal to "fill the gaps"

Its not going to be a gigantic project like C2C or RE, just adding a few techs and units where I see entire historical periods are missing.

For example artillery warfare in my mod progresses like this:

13-15 century - Bombard (more siege than field unit)
16-17 century - Culverin (more field than siege unit)
18-19 century - Cannon (siege)
19 century - Mortar (field)
WW1 - Artillery (siege)
WW2 - still working on
70s + - Mobil artillery

similar I have added 3 ships to early armored navy era that sit between ironclad (that dates back to early 19th century) and WW2 style destroyer/battleships, covering period between 1850 to WW1

I have also inserted Biplane between Airship and Fighter, as well as Early Jet Fighter (later 40s to 70s) between Fighter (ww2) and Modern Jet (70s+)

 

[damerell]

Its not going to be a gigantic project like C2C or RE, just adding a few techs and units where I see entire historical periods are missing.

Now, without in any way criticising you, because we're both just talking about what we'd like, I think that's already too much. I think mostly I'm driven by game mechanics, not history; something I find unsatisfying is where the next generation of units can utterly steamroller the previous. On land, that's rarely the case; but Destroyers will obliterate Frigates or even Ships of the Line just as Frigates will obliterate Caravels. I think this is partly also why I see the coal-fired large warship as a dreadnought not any kind of pre-dreadnought; not only does it get a better name, but it ideally ought to at least have a good chance against Destroyers, albeit at a lower strength/hammer ratio, and some chance against Battleships.

Also, of course, of all the gaps - on land, don't have oil, one can struggle on with Infantry and suchlike. But at sea you can't even put up a fight - and half the oil's at sea. It's reminiscent of Civ III's strategic resources.

However, bombards don't fit into this rationale of mine at all. Hm.

 

[Dr.Null]

13-15 century - Bombard (more siege than field unit)

How does your Bombard functionally differ from a Treb?

Both are city attackers which suck in the field.

 

[nfw]

How does your Bombard functionally differ from a Treb?

Both are city attackers which suck in the field.

Well bombard being a gunpowder unit, would ignore castle and walls.

I echo the LoR recommendation, it adds all these missing units, and rebalances some existing ones (like axe to strength 4).

 

[damerell]

Well bombard being a gunpowder unit, would ignore castle and walls.

Although "bombard" was on my list, I'm not sure castles and walls need to get any worse.

I echo the LoR recommendation, it adds all these missing units, and rebalances some existing ones (like axe to strength 4).

The trouble is not that it doesn't add them [1]. The trouble is... I'd like an apple, a pork pie, and a glass of beer. LoR is offering me a six-course meal (of things I might or might not be allergic to), somewhere in which is an apple, a pork pie, and a glass of beer, and although I can turn some of it down, it's fundamentally a bit of a package deal.

[1] Actually, to a degree, it is. LoR's mass of coal-fired naval units are not the naval units you'd add if you said "given that I can add at most three: one transport, one small warship, and one big warship; and that I want those three to be game mechanically interesting, and not implausible as some unit from the historical period - what would I add?"

 

[noto2]

Ugh...eww...I tried LOR and completely hated it. I play with Kmod and absolutely love it

 

[Tlalynet]

Call me Mister Unreasonable, but when Hitler's bonce turns up and the German unit flag's a swastika, I tend to be a little less than keen on sticking with a mod.

Also, as you mention, I don't really need a hojillion polygons on something which, from my point of view, could equally well be an abstract icon.

The point of Wolfshanze I like was actually before that. He had Hirohito already and some custom settlers and units for all far east civs, but no Hitler yet and no swastika. I actually remember him trying to figure out how to change the flag only when the hilter leader-head rolled and have the normal German flag otherwise.

By then it was already having stability issues though, esp on decent sized maps. I stoped following the mod for a while at that point, and next things I know he's gone from CivFanatics and the head of Legends of Revolution is fixing his stuff to make it stable.


I VERY strongly second the 'could equally well be an abstract icon' sentiments. He ruined some great concepts over graphics...

 

[ChaosSlayer]

Also, of course, of all the gaps - on land, don't have oil, one can struggle on with Infantry and suchlike. But at sea you can't even put up a fight - and half the oil's at sea. It's reminiscent of Civ III's strategic resources.

However, bombards don't fit into this rationale of mine at all. Hm.

well I can agree that navies have a largest gap than anything land-wise.
Still think land warfare does have a few gaps, but that's just me

How does your Bombard functionally differ from a Treb?

Both are city attackers which suck in the field.

On Bombard - yeah I wanted to make my artillery progression in such way so siege types and field types go one after another, but there is nothing to place in between Bombard and Treb, that would be historically proper anti-personal field weapon.
So bombard is just a bigger and more powerful siege weapon than Treb.
Plus I made it to require Copper or Iron to make, so if you short on those Treb can still be an option.

 

[traius]

Now, without in any way criticising you, because we're both just talking about what we'd like, I think that's already too much. I think mostly I'm driven by game mechanics, not history; something I find unsatisfying is where the next generation of units can utterly steamroller the previous. .

At first I felt the same way, and from a gameplay standpoint, still feel that way. But realistically (from wikipedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_warfare, emphasis my own):
From wood and wind to steel and steam

Trafalgar ushered in the Pax Britannica of the 19th century, marked by general peace in the world's oceans, under the ensigns of the Royal Navy. But the period was one of intensive experimentation with new technology; steam power for ships appeared in the 1810s, improved metallurgy and machining technique produced larger and deadlier guns, and the development of explosive shells, capable of demolishing a wooden ship at a single blow, in turn required the addition of iron armour.

The insignificant naval effort that the Manchus/Chinese pitted against the more advanced British steam-powered ships during the first of the Opium Wars in the 1840s was sorely defeated. This left China open to virtual foreign domination.

Endquote

So there simply was a rapid revolution in ship design, simulated-ish by the tech line.

Finally, my second point, about the non-need of dreadnoughts, is summed up by another wiki quote I found while I was researching, so I'll just use their words again.
From the wiki article on battleships (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battleship#The_Dreadnought_era):
Battleship design evolved to incorporate and adapt technological advances to maintain an edge. The word battleship was coined around 1794 and is a contraction of the phrase line-of-battle ship, the dominant wooden warship during the Age of Sail.
Endquote.
As in a ship of the line. The battleships are the flag-ships, the biggest ships, and the dreadnought was the battleship of its time.

One last quote, from the article on warships (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warship):
Britain launched the all-big-gun battleship Dreadnought in 1906. Powered by steam turbines, she was bigger, faster and more heavily gunned than all existing battleships, which she immediately rendered obsolete. She was rapidly followed by similar ships in other countries.