What's the best way to fix horsemen?

[pi-r8]

I think most people who have played this game a lot agree that the horsemen is way too strong the way it is now. You can easily conquer several nearby civs with it, even on deity. Note that I'm not talking about the companion cavalry here, or even the Mongols with their bonus move- I'm just talking about the stock horseman with 4 move and 12 strength.

The question is, what would be the best way to change things so that they don't just steamroll everything in the early game? Of course part of the problem is the AI, which can't really account for all the movement possibilites of a 4 move unit. But I think there are things which could be done so that the horsemen is at least balanced with the other units in its era.

One very simple change is to reduce the horseman down to 3 move. All the other mounted units (except the lancer, which is a whole other topic) only get 3 moves, so why should the horseman be any different? This would also help the AI a lot in defending against horsemen. And you wouldn't be able to abuse the tactic of "move forward, attack, move back 2" which basically turns the horseman into a ranged unit with a range of 2. I think reducing the movement of the horseman is an obvious first step.

However... is that really enough? Even with 3 move, the horseman still seems like it would be much better than any other early unit. It's still strong enough to beat spears on open ground, and with enough promos it can even beat them on rough terrain. I think reducing its strength to 10 would also be a good change.

EVEN THEN, I'm not sure that's enough of a nerf. 3-move, 10-strength horsemen could still team up to take down anything in the early game, and then retreat to safety for healing. And using swordsman/spearmen is just so clumsy. So here's a more radical suggestion- give all melee units the ability to attack and then move.

One of the best features about horsemen (and all mounted) is that you can wait for an enemy unit to move onto open terrain, kill it with the horseman, and then run away. You can't do that with other melee- they'll just get stuck in the open terrain after they win the battle, and probably die to any counterattack. Giving all melee the ability to move after attacking would give the regular units a chance to compete with horsemen.

 

[Fluxx]

As with everything people tend to exagerate and rather follow then think on their own accord.
Horsemen are strong, but like some people put it "OMGWTFOP", is an exageration.

It does seem awkward that horsebased units got same or even higher power then other units.
What I recommend is reducing the power of all horse based units by a very small margin, but most importantly reducing their strength by half against cities. The Horsemen should be used as mobile harassing units, but not as the battering ram function they have currently.
How much I dislike the "realism" argument, it feels silly that Horsemen should be effective in taking a city.

 

[pi-r8]

I remember this being discussed in Ahriman's thread on balance changes, and he said a good counter-argument for the city attack penalty. City battle just don't matter much- after you've destroyed their entire army in the field, capturing the city is easy, even with very weak troops. I don't think a -50% city attack penalty would change that. And bear in mind, you can counter any penalty with promotions, so if it had just 1 promotion + a great general nearby, that would almost cancel out the 50% city attack penalty.

Still, a city attack penalty might be good in combination with the other changes I suggested.

 

[aimlessgun]

Hrm, melee moving after attacking. That is true about them getting stuck in open terrain. Would have to test it.

Horses have a few other factors to think about when balancing vs other units of the era, aka swords.

-You can upgrade swords out of warriors, making them extremely inexpensive.
-You can get Longswords much faster than you can get Knights.

-But Iron Working does cost more than HBR
-And horses have 2 more move, 1 more str, and can move after attacking...
-Horses can abuse even Longswords by poucing on open terrain, flanking, and hit and run, to say nothing of totally destroying swords.

I'm not sure if nerfing them in 3 ways is justified considering that there are a couple advantages to swords. The other thing is, the window before the AI has a lot of pikes is pretty random, sometimes they get pikes really fast, other times they don't.

 

[vranasm]

reduce movement to 3 and attack city penalty (-50% could fit)
that way it doesnt make some weird imbalance in melee units x city defense and mounted units x melee units

edit:
make AIs build more horses itself. In one game against alexander his CC give me some headache when he actually built it ;-)

edit2:
as I see it horses should stomp melee (warrior+swordsman) and have worse odds against spear (why does spears get -33% on open? that's stupid! get rid of it)

 

[The Great Apple]

Horses' 4 movement works for me vs knights'/cavalries' 3 movement due to the light weight nature of horses. I think I'd do the following:

1) Reduction in strength to 10 or 11.
2) City attack penalty (-25% or -50%)
3) Spears/pikes +1 strength, perhaps with a very small cost increase.
4) A slight reduction in quantity of horses (maybe 10-25%).
5) Make the AI better

We don't want to make horses a bad unit, or take away their role as a hit and run unit. It's very easy to over-nerf and make units completely useless. I think making spears and pikes a bit stronger wouldn't make them overpowered against other units, but would give them +2 vs horses. At the moment spears don't really effectively counter horses, and pikes aren't amazing.

EDIT: I think one of the main issues is that you can hit and run, even against much stronger units. Even if you take damage on three horsemen, getting the kill is what matters.

 

[wurstburst]

Nerfing horsemen a bit makes a lot of sense. Their mobility obviously gives a big edge to the human player who will know how to exploit it. Add in the best strength of contemporary units and you have an overpowered unit.

I'd favor keeping the move at 4 (to retain the flavor of fast moving armies), but reducing the strength to 9 and making city attack -33% (as effective as a warrior). This would make horsemen a good part of a combined arms army. Great for taking out other armies, but not something you would want to build in isolation to take down cities (although I think a solid player attacking a city on flat ground would probably be able to take out early cities with horsemen only, still).

 

[pi-r8]

Hmm I like the idea of buffing spears/pikes. Right now, horseman can even kill pikes! That's not right.
Maybe reduce the strength of horsemen by 1, and also increase the strength of spears/pikemen by 1.
I still want to reduce their movement and give melee attack and move, though. As it is I'd take a horseman over a longsword any day, because their mobility is just so powerful.

 

[Martin Alvito]

The problem is movement. 3 moves will help. Then you're exposed to counterattacks.

Other than that, all you need is AI improvement.

Swordsmen are fantastic if you get them deployed fast enough.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

I'd say make them weaker and/or more expensive... keep their extreme movement, but make them Str 10 (instead of 12)

and increase their cost by 75-100% and make the Stables a 50% production bonus.

 

[pi-r8]

The problem is movement. 3 moves will help. Then you're exposed to counterattacks.

Other than that, all you need is AI improvement.

Swordsmen are fantastic if you get them deployed fast enough.

How are you exposed to exposed to counterattack? let's say H= horseman, O= open tile, S = swordsman. The units are positioned like this:

[H][O]

Horsemen moves forward, kills the first swordsman, then moves back 2 tiles. Now it looks like this:

[H][O][O]

And the second swordsman is helpless. Smarter AI won't help that (and we'll never get smarter AI by the way. It's too hard for them to program).

Another problem with swordsman are that you can't see iron until you tech iron working, so it's sort of a gamble whether you'll get them or not. Maybe bronze working should reveal iron? I know that doesn't make sense but it would help the balance.

 

[Nunya]

In my modded game Horsemen have 3 moves, there is no open terrain penalty, and rough terrain gives a 50% bonus (which Horsemen can't get).

It seems to work out pretty well and Spearmen a royal pain to fight. Horsemen take heavy damage fighting them (12 vs 14 strenth in the open and 12 vs 17.5 strength if they're on rough terrain) and they can't retreat out of range afterwards. The only issue left is that below Immortal difficulty the AI doesn't seem to build Spearmen enough and even if does have them it can't use them effectively.

In my America game on Emperor difficulty I could easily overrun the closest two civs, but the third one already had Swordsmen and while I eventually did conquer them it wasn't easy. After that Horsemen simply wouldn't cut it anymore and I ahd to upgrade them to Knights. Overall it was still too easy to win, but I think that was purely the fault of crappy AI and not so much of Horsemen being overpowered.

In my Egypt game on Immortal difficulty my Horsemen easily conquered Siam who didn't have any real army, but America had an army of Archers and Spearmen and I only managed to conquer them around turn 120, after I had also researched Iron Working and upgraded a Warrior to Swordsman so he could take out their Spearmen. About that same time I got a message than Napoleon entered the Renaissance.

One additional change that I am contemplating though is to have Wheel require Archery (it's silly that you can have Chariot Archers without having foot Archers). That way Horsemen would require 4 technologies while Swordsmen would only require 3.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

How are you exposed to exposed to counterattack? let's say H= horseman, O= open tile, S = swordsman. The units are positioned like this:

[H][O]

Horsemen moves forward, kills the first swordsman, then moves back 2 tiles. Now it looks like this:

[H][O][O]

And the second swordsman is helpless. Smarter AI won't help that (and we'll never get smarter AI by the way. It's too hard for them to program).

Another problem with swordsman are that you can't see iron until you tech iron working, so it's sort of a gamble whether you'll get them or not. Maybe bronze working should reveal iron? I know that doesn't make sense but it would help the balance.

It makes perfect sense.... bronze working means you are using metals, which means your people might notice this Other metal, that can be used for some types of production.

 

[Vordeo]

Have attacking end their turn, and make moving after attacking a tough-ish promotion they can get (as hard to get as say, Blitz).

That should do.

 

[The Great Apple]

How are you exposed to exposed to counterattack? let's say H= horseman, O= open tile, S = swordsman. The units are positioned like this:

[H][O]

Horsemen moves forward, kills the first swordsman, then moves back 2 tiles. Now it looks like this:

[H][O][O]

And the second swordsman is helpless. Smarter AI won't help that (and we'll never get smarter AI by the way. It's too hard for them to program).

Um... with 3 movement this isn't possible. You'll end up with:

[O][H][O]

Hence the 3 movement nerf reducing hit and run ability. I'm not sure I like this, and I think I'd rather nerf them in other ways.

Have attacking end their turn, and make moving after attacking a tough-ish promotion they can get (as hard to get as say, Blitz).

Strongly disagree with this. I think the role of horsemen is hit & run, and they should remain in this role. They shouldn't be quite so good against it, especially against their counters, but that is their role.

 

[Paeanblack]

Add 50% to all Classical-Era tech costs and make HBR require Trapping.

 

[pagh80]

Keep the 4 moves but reduce the strength to 10.

 

[Vorge]

Two options that spring to mind are as follows:

1) Make horsemend require another tech such as bronze working or even iron working. I mean what are those horsemen weilding anyway? Sticks? This makes them a bit more of a luxury unit and slows down their availability giving the AI time to tech up a bit to counter them effectively.

2) Increase the effect of spearmen considerably verus mounted units. This seems the simplest option and would provide the AI with an effective counter in one easy move.

Also 4 move does seem OTT, so maybe reduce that to 3 as well.

 

[pi-r8]

Um... with 3 movement this isn't possible. You'll end up with:

[O][H][O]

Hence the 3 movement nerf reducing hit and run ability. I'm not sure I like this, and I think I'd rather nerf them in other ways.

oh yeah, true. But if the sword starts out next to the horse, they can still do that. Or if the last sword starts two tiles away, the horse is also safe.

 

[pi-r8]

Add 50% to all Classical-Era tech costs and make HBR require Trapping.

I feel like any sort of tech changes won't help much, because the horseman stays useful for so, so long. I've used horsemen to kill riflemen, on a few occasions. So it's not like you have to hurry and tech horseback riding quickly before they go obsolete.