What's the point of morals?

Why do you follow your morals?

  • Total voters
    40
In the end, as most of you pointed out, that's what it all boils down to. Personal benefit indeed, the least selected option is the one all the others lead into.

For instance, say you do the right thing to help others... why do you want to help others? Because it makes you feel good. Personal benefit.
 
My actions are simply based on my personal benefit and generally nothing else (being charitable is a "Feel Good" personal benefit)
 
There's actions and consequences, so when you act do you look at the consequences and their negative effects to yourself or do you equally weigh the affects your act has on others, even when they wont affect you?

What's YOUR slant on your act and its consequences? Is it just YOU that matters, (meaning yes you wont steal from John not because he will be broke, but because you might get caught)

or does John being broke matter even if you can get away with it fully and completely?

What matters to YOU?

This isn't an abstract debate of meaningless concepts.

Edit: Ok I see your POV in your edited version now, thank you.
 
Prince_Imrahil said:
And morality is not something special etc. etc. That's not the point. There's actions and consequences, so when you act do you look at the consequences and their negative effects to yourself or do you equally weigh the affects your act has on others, even when they wont affect you?

What's YOUR slant on your act and its consequences? Is it just YOU that matters, (meaning yes you wont steal from John not because he will be broke, but because you might get caught)

or does John being broke matter even if you can get away with it fully and completely?

What matters to YOU?

This isn't an abstract debate of meaningless concepts.

Edit: Ok I see your POV in your edited version now, thank you.
Click to expand...

Sorry I didn't read the OP properly initially and when I realised the mistake I made a ninja edit hoping nobody would notice
 
No worries and thanks! :goodjob:

Really, if you think about it, everyone is of the same mindset, even our altruistic motives are done so we feel good.
 
This argument biased towards the idea that it's all about selfishness, is shallow indeed. That's not to say that it's completely off-base and untrue, but just not reaching the proper depth in order to understand what all is actually at play. Thus for starters I would submit, that the significance of morals to some (such as myself for one) are based on the strong belief, and desire to look past this life, this world, in order to reach the next.

Put it this way... suppose you knew for certain that your life was going to end roughly in about 2 or 3 months, tops. For one thing, you can never truly appreciate the gravity of this circumstance, until you're actually in it. But once you are, your mind becomes more preoccupied with 'what's next', than anything else. Death is inevitable, but most take it for granted. Is it "seflish" to reach for something higher, seek more, be a part of something greater, and advance to a level where you feel you'd finally be happy - that for which you were made and intended? Is that selfish, or is it gravitating towards destiny?

I would say that following the path that you were created for, is not selfish. Granted, it involves a tremendous 'self-betterment' program in a sense, but that is creation (as you thoroughly believe it to be). Now, if you have such beliefs, then you cannot stand living with dishonor, or shame. At this 'low level', in which you happen to currently live, it would be disgraceful for you to leave this place, having been a negative influence on it. No matter how much you may loathe them (actually, not them, but their trouble with sin), you must love the Lord's people as best you can, as their creator does.

That's the test. Fail that test - even slightly, and you are overcome with torment. Unable to tolerate your own existence. You feel unworthy to move higher - which is all you really want when it comes down to it. So, anyway, once you have determined what is important to you, you tend to live with the following statement in mind:
 
I agree with this post.
I do as well.
Click to expand...

By agreeing with that post, you guys all ultimately agree that the core, the very heart of it all, is Number One. No matter how much they all apply, and how we act moral to help humanity, its all ultimately for our own interests and benefit.


If you wish to argue against this, feel free and please do, I am looking for an argument against, so my essay isn't fully one sided (because I am unable to refute my own claim that its all in the end, personal interest)

his argument biased towards the idea that it's all about selfishness, is shallow indeed. That's not to say that it's completely off-base and untrue, but just not reaching the proper depth in order to understand what all is actually at play. Thus for starters I would submit, that the significance of morals to some (such as myself for one) are based on the strong belief, and desire to look past this life, this world, in order to reach the next.

Put it this way... suppose you knew for certain that your life was going to end roughly in about 2 or 3 months, tops. For one thing, you can never truly appreciate the gravity of this circumstance, until you're actually in it. But once you are, your mind becomes more preoccupied with 'what's next', than anything else. Death is inevitable, but most take it for granted. Is it "seflish" to reach for something higher, seek more, be a part of something greater, and advance to a level where you feel you'd finally be happy - that for which you were made and intended? Is that selfish, or is it gravitating towards destiny?

I would say that following the path that you were created for, is not selfish. Granted, it involves a tremendous 'self-betterment' program in a sense, but that is creation (as you thoroughly believe it to be). Now, if you have such beliefs, then you cannot stand living with dishonor, or shame. At this 'low level', in which you happen to currently live, it would be disgraceful for you to leave this place, having been a negative influence on it. No matter how much you may loathe them (actually, not them, but their trouble with sin), you must love the Lord's people as best you can, as their creator does.

That's the test. Fail that test - even slightly, and you are overcome with torment. Unable to tolerate your own existence. You feel unworthy to move higher - which is all you really want when it comes down to it. So, anyway, once you have determined what is important to you, you tend to live with the following statement in mind:
Click to expand...

Nay Lotus, its not shallow because ultimately whats best for us is whats best for humanity, Not Lying, Not Cheating, Not Stealing, Not being ********* like so many people are.

And indeed the religious Position is the same, your altrustic actions towards humanity are so you can get to heaven... so you say this is fullfilling destiny and not selfish... you dont have to say its selfish, but its fullfilling YOUR destiny, which is YOUR interest and, heaven surely is a BENEFIT...

..i';m of the atheist viewpoint but accepting your religious viewpoint, I fail to see a strong rebuttal that its not about YOU.
 
Prince_Imrahil said:
By agreeing with that post, you guys all ultimately agree that the core, the very heart of it all, is Number One. No matter how much they all apply, and how we act moral to help humanity, its all ultimately for our own interests and benefit.




Nay Lotus, its not shallow because ultimately whats best for us is whats best for humanity, Not Lying, Not Cheating, Not Stealing, Not being ********* like so many people are.

And indeed the religious Position is the same, your altrustic actions towards humanity are so you can get to heaven... so you say this is fullfilling destiny and not selfish... you dont have to say its selfish, but its fullfilling YOUR destiny, which is YOUR interest and, heaven surely is a BENEFIT...

..i';m of the atheist viewpoint but accepting your religious viewpoint, I fail to see a strong rebuttal that its not about YOU.
Click to expand...

Well, I'm only in charge of one thing - myself. I can only decide the fate of, and guide the destiny of myself, because in reality that's the only power I have.

Sort like a machine (or... body of Christ, if you will), if every little one/part is doing good, what it's supposed to - then the benefit IS to the body as a whole.

We're simply not in charge of much, at this level. The only time that really changes (I would presume) is when you have children, or others that depend upon you. Then, you have been given greater responsibilities. But, until that time comes, the focus is to get things right within yourself, so you can function at higher levels. If you can't even do that (which of course, requires a focus on one's self) then you're failing everyone, including yourself.

Hopefully, both the Christian and the athiest can agree that love is important - and as they say: if you can't even love yourself, how can you love others, and share in the love that is out there?

So, you have to start within, though the long-term goal is total selflessness, once your time comes and you are ready. That is the fundamental goal/objective of Christainity - for everyone to be selfless. How does that strike you? Common ground, eh? Jesus Himself was setting the example - washing the feet of his disciples, etc.

It's not easy to do, in this world, though. But that is the test, however. So anyway, in reality the final, ultimate goal of my "morals" is to be selfless... which is exactly the opposite of what the natural tendency of this world is. So, for most, it's a process that takes time. But if you stick with them (your morals), you will develop. Even I, have made progress. Naturally, I was incredibly selfish... never even let other kids even touch my toys. But, I'm getting to the point where I could let it all go, if that's what I was asked to do... and it wouldn't bother me at all. Just as the man in the Bible's story did, I have some wealth. But, I can part with it. I just need to know my purpose... if my purpose is to have a family, then I need that wealth, obviously. But, my purpose is not yet clear to me, so I'm prepared to go either way, whatever is asked of me.

But the point is, I'm ready to do what ever is asked... even leave this world entirely. My beneficiary info is all up to date. So, if I'm ready to GO (and I mean 'go', in the ultimate sense), I can't be all that selfish. Selfish, would be running to my own little island paradise with my money, and doing nothing but living a Villa full of 24/7 entertainment, sparing no expense, or vice. Me? I really don't need anything here. Now the only thing I need to know, is am I supposed to do anything here... and that sign is coming, very soon.
 
Prince_Imrahil said:
By agreeing with that post, you guys all ultimately agree that the core, the very heart of it all, is Number One. No matter how much they all apply, and how we act moral to help humanity, its all ultimately for our own interests and benefit.
Click to expand...
All creatures are biologically programmed to put their own needs first (and those of their gene carriers).

However, that doesn't preclude kindness to others. As humans, we can find ever more creative ways to work together for everyone's good (though we can also find ways to work together for mutual destruction). That (not the part in parentheses) is my goal.

I suspect punkbass is problem coming from a perceived even larger "spiritual" perspective of us all being one and thereby by taking care of yourself and being happy you take care of the whole (you probably won't be contributing much to the whole by being an unhappy, unfulfilled resentful person).

Doing things for your own benefit first and foremost doesn't necessarily imply selfishness and/or greed. IMO, it's just the best way to make sure you are taken care of (if you want your life done right, do it yourself!). As long as you aren't trying to obsessively take for yourself (and from others) and are actually creating value by serving yourself (say by improving your life in a way that allows you to contribute more to others) putting #1 first is just fine. If everyone took care of themselves first, and loved themselves, and didn't try to put the responsibility for their happiness onto others, the world would be a much better (and probably more generous) place. :)
 
Agree fully Narz, what people do not seem to realize though is that the personal benefit thing does not ultimately Equate Greedy Selfish Bastard who would Harm Others for Personal Gain, because harming others in the long run would lead to self harm.
 
By agreeing with that post, you guys all ultimately agree that the core, the very heart of it all, is Number One. No matter how much they all apply, and how we act moral to help humanity, its all ultimately for our own interests and benefit.
Click to expand...
You can't really imply that I'm a bad person, for realising that helping others helps myself. It's merely an observation.

Does convincing others that 'helping others helps yourself' benefit me? Of course. But it also benefits them, so you can hardly call the result selfish.
 
I in no way call option 1 or helping yourself which does help others, something that makes you a bad person. I point out that they all agree with one to indicate that in the end, one is what matters, but that doesn't make it wrong.
 
By agreeing with that post, you guys all ultimately agree that the core, the very heart of it all, is Number One. No matter how much they all apply, and how we act moral to help humanity, its all ultimately for our own interests and benefit.
Click to expand...

Um, no. I've already explained that this is not the case.
 
To ostracise people who have a negative impact on society.
 
My morals are mostly based on the golden rule, or ethic of reciprocity, the secular version. I think it's what benefits best both me and mankind, so I voted option 4.
 
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