What's wrong with the Marathon speed?

[Carlos77]

I've played about 5 VP games so far, 2 on Marathon (large map). Both of them ended in the late Renaissance/early Industrial era (Domination vic).

I feel something might be wrong with various scalings but I'm way too inexperienced to put my finger on what exactly that is. Maybe if I played a chill game and not aimed for a Domination vic....but on higher difficulties you can't exactly just sit with your hands folded and watch the AIs snowball, you have to go to war with them. But if you do, on the Marathon gamespeed everything is over very fast.

 

[CppMaster]

It's expected, because units movement are not scaled, while production, tech and policy costs are.

 

[Omen of Peace]

And healing as well. Common wisdom is that slower speeds favour Domination.

Try another victory type, or the randomized victory option.

 

[Moi Magnus]

Marathon is like playing a standard game with:
+ Units (and civilians) having 3 times more movement points
+ Units (and cities) able to attack 3 times per turn
+ Units (and cities) healing 3 times quicker
(and probably few other similar things)
When you look at it like that, of course units are stronger than at standard speed, so domination is easier.

I don't really see how we could change the balance to correct that without loosing the concept of marathon itself.

Maybe multiplying HP of units and cities by 3? (and +50% in epic)
I'm not convinced its a good idea, but that's the only reasonable idea I have.

 

[CppMaster]

Marathon is like playing a standard game with:
+ Units (and civilians) having 3 times more movement points
+ Units (and cities) able to attack 3 times per turn
+ Units (and cities) healing 3 times quicker
(and probably few other similar things)
When you look at it like that, of course units are stronger than at standard speed, so domination is easier.

I don't really see how we could change the balance to correct that without loosing the concept of marathon itself.

Maybe multiplying HP of units and cities by 3? (and +50% in epic)
I'm not convinced its a good idea, but that's the only reasonable idea I have.

Great idea! I would also make map, XP needed for promotion and CS influence levels 3 times bigger (and 1.5 times bigger in epic). It'a good modmod material, because for Vox Populi it might be too drastic change.

 

[tu_79]

I would not delay units. This is what people like in marathon, being able to abuse combat.
I would delay conquest consolidation time, however.

There are two ways to slow down city acquisition: Happiness hit and increased costs. In standard we refrain the conquests, should it make research and policies too costly.

I guess revolt duration is already scaled (is it?), but it can be made even longer if that helps to slow down domination games. Or tech and policy costs increased further with the number of cities, forcing the player to rebuild before next war.

 

[Enginseer]

The problem with Marathon is that the AI is really punished hard if they lose 3 units compared to if they lose 3 units at quick speed hence domination victory seems inevitable.

Now some people devised up with the idea to make a "historical speed" where tech and policy slows down to marathon, buildings slow down to epic, but units slow down to normal speed. Meaning you get more cool historical battles, but I have no idea if this is the case for Vox Populi.

 

[sSs1897]

Marathon is like playing a standard game with:
+ Units (and civilians) having 3 times more movement points
+ Units (and cities) able to attack 3 times per turn
+ Units (and cities) healing 3 times quicker
(and probably few other similar things)
When you look at it like that, of course units are stronger than at standard speed, so domination is easier.

I don't really see how we could change the balance to correct that without loosing the concept of marathon itself.

Maybe multiplying HP of units and cities by 3? (and +50% in epic)
I'm not convinced its a good idea, but that's the only reasonable idea I have.

I would say that it's definitely biased towards melee units and against ranged units. Some of the survivability of ranged units lies in killing enemy units before reached. Other tactics that rely on finishing enemies quick would suffer (like ais catching the filthy scout pillaging their lands) and Napoleon would be the God of War.

 

[merill]

The problem with Marathon is that the AI is really punished hard if they lose 3 units compared to if they lose 3 units at quick speed hence domination victory seems inevitable.

Now some people devised up with the idea to make a "historical speed" where tech and policy slows down to marathon, buildings slow down to epic, but units slow down to normal speed. Meaning you get more cool historical battles, but I have no idea if this is the case for Vox Populi.

For it to be balanced, the building speed should be slower than marathon if the building speed of units are quicker.

 

[ryanmusante]

I feel like maybe I should move to epic until some of the theory translates into changes. Am I actually that good of a player on Emperor Marathon? Or would Epic Marathon crush me?

Maybe I'm so accustomed to marathon speeds that I've become complacent in my strategies and overall perspective. It's like I'm playing an entirely different game than the people on Standard.

https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/balancing-game-speeds.626400/

Is this a closed case? Should I consider it a possibility more people would engage marathon to do further playtesting?

 

[Leondegrance]

Marathon on huge Tectonic is completely different game. Has nothing to do with Standard speed gameplay. It is a blast to play, only downside is that is very long game but you will have a lot of cities to take care of and keep you busy. Marathon is deceiving because it starts slow but it is not slow game at all, you will be very busy with empire management and what not once you start spamming cities. And you better do because the AI spams them a lot.

The number of cities in Classical era reaches 10 easily. Complexity very quickly escalates and the AI is about the same number and the whole environment becomes more involved.

Marathon games are very large games with larger possibilities.

 

[ryanmusante]

Marathon games are very large games with larger possibilities.

I think I'll go back to Epic until there are further balances done to Marathon. It just seems slightly broken at this point.

 

[Leondegrance]

I think I'll go back to Epic until there are further balances done to Marathon. It just seems slightly broken at this point.

I strongly advise against. Take a look at what is going on at mid-Classical. This is only mid-Classical, the second era and this is only a tiny fraction of the map. There are 43 Civs here. Imagine this in later eras, marathon games are behemoth games. I wonder at which era my PC gonna crush, or rather me first. I can't imagine taking care of empire of 30-40 cities.

 

[Minh Le]

One problem with marathon is instant yield is stronger and easier to get -> authority is king here.

 

[Leondegrance]

One problem with marathon is instant yield is stronger and easier to get -> authority is king here.

Do you mean the quests for revealing territory or finding Natural Wonders ? If yes, look, these are very early quests. Once you reveal the map and find the wonders, these type of quests are over. By the way, the AI also exploits these same issue no worse than a human player. In fact, a CIV already proved the world is round in mid-Classical era. Don't underestimate the AI navigation here.

And when these early quests are over, what do we do then ? You still have a whole lot to play. It is not over.

Also the rewards of these early quests have minor impact on the game. Don't think you win the game for solving a few early quests at all. It is just starting, they will get reward for quests as well.

 

[Enginseer]

Do you mean the quests for revealing territory or finding Natural Wonders ? If yes, look, these are very early quests. Once you reveal the map and find the wonders, these type of quests are over. By the way, the AI also exploits these same issue no worse than a human player. In fact, a CIV already proved the world is round in mid-Classical era. Don't underestimate the AI navigation here.

And when these early quests are over, what do we do then ? You still have a whole lot to play. It is not over.

I think it punishes your mistakes much harshly than a Quick game speed does.

Lose a unit in Marathon and you're not going to get it back for 10 turns compared to Quick in 2 turns.

 

[Minh Le]

I mean instant yield from demand tribute, killing units, capturing cities, etc... which make authority far stronger than Tradition and Progress in slower game pace. Also warmongering is easier as well.

 

[Leondegrance]

I mean instant yield from demand tribute, killing units, capturing cities, etc... which make authority far stronger than Tradition and Progress in slower game pace. Also warmongering is easier as well.

It is deceivingly easier. One city conquered in Marathon is not equal to one city conquered in Standard. The scale is larger on Marathon.

 

[Minh Le]

I used to play a lot of marathon games on huge map. Thats what my experience says, I cant provide exact number. But one thing I can be certain is you can get instant yield much easier since you have more time to move your units around.

 

[Leondegrance]

I used to play a lot of marathon games on huge map. Thats what my experience says, I cant provide exact number. But one thing I can be certain is you can get instant yield much easier since you have more time to move your units around.

You can't approach a marathon game with standard mentality. They are different gameplays. It is a cup of tea. I play both but marathon is the most memorable.