It seems as though have been intermittent discussions in the past about managing armies in the late game, specifically with reference to how easy it can be to have well over 100 military units by the modern era and the deleterious affects that has on gameplay. Granted I've only played through four games now (emperor/immortal, 4uc, Communitas_79) on the new patch and had barely played in the prior few months, but I have personally noticed three fundamental problems with late-game combat and I think I see a way to kill three birds with one stone.
Problem 1: Gap in Industrial-Modern-Atomic unit strengths is generally too small. This is not only thematically problematic but strategically uninteresting.
Problem 2: Upgrading units is generally quite easy. This limits strategy and also introduces balance concerns that have led to some late game units being less interesting than they otherwise could be.
Problem 3: Late-Game unit counts are incredibly high and make late-game wars far less enjoyable and interesting.
My solution:
tl;dr: increase most post-industrial unit upgrades to a 30-50% CS increases depending on context while keeping total army CS and production costs constant by increasing unit production costs, supply costs of armor/naval units, strategic resource demands of armor/naval/air units, and gold maintenance costs. Make the total cost of training a unit and upgrading it to the next tier more than just training that next tier unit outright.
I'm interested to see if other people agree with my assessment, and even more interested in hearing thoughts and counter-arguments from people who feel differently. Obviously what I'm talking about is a massive, fundamental part of VP late game, so I don't expect equally massive change anytime soon, but I just thought it would be good to try to get the ball rolling and see what other people feel.
Problem 1: Gap in Industrial-Modern-Atomic unit strengths is generally too small. This is not only thematically problematic but strategically uninteresting.
Spoiler Explanation :
- The most important moments of a player's game often happen around when important military techs like Chivalry, Gunpowder, or Rifling research. However, on the other hand very few of the late-game military techs feel nearly as impactful, save for maybe Combustion and Atomic theory. Late-game wars often feel incremental and attritional, while mid-game wars are aggressive and dynamic. In large part this is because the late game power spikes from new techs are simply much smaller than the power spikes in the mid-game.
- While I'll discuss this more later, a newly-created unit in the late-game is oftentimes barely more powerful than a unit from the prior tier with the extra promotions it will likely have from prior combat. This means that in certain situations tech increases are practically meaningless even though they required huge investment.
- The gap in strength between military technology of different eras is HUGE irl. Prussia v. Austria in 1866, Cortez v. Aztecs in 1519, Boers v. British in 1880, United States v. the Third World since 1945, etc... While some notable exceptions to this rule are manifested in UUs (like the Zulu Impi), in general I think that some Industrial and most Modern and Atomic units do not scale hard enough.
- That a Musketman would dominate a Crossbowman or a breech-loader armed Fusilier would dominate a shot-and-pike Tercio makes logical and historical sense. That Lancers and Fusiliers don't get stomped by Landships, that Triplanes can still intercept Heavy Bombers and even stealth bombers, and that Machine guns don't decimate Fusiliers and Lancers does not make sense.
Problem 2: Upgrading units is generally quite easy. This limits strategy and also introduces balance concerns that have led to some late game units being less interesting than they otherwise could be.
Spoiler explanation :
- Unless you are very cash strapped, it is quite easy to have all of your important units upgraded within 5-10 turns of researching their upgraded version, meaning that there is little strategic decision making that goes into upgrading units. Additionally, creating and upgrading a unit from the prior tier almost always costs around the same gold/production as producing a new, current-tier unit. Thus it almost always makes sense to upgrade rather than train as your upgraded units will be available sooner and have better promotions. Even if we didn't decide to make units scale harder, I still think making train+upgrade cost more than just training/purchasing would be a good change.
- Upgrading units should be expensive and it should be common to see heterogeneous armies. Not only is this how military technology generally functions in the real world, like how the Union army in the US civil war used gatling guns, repeating cartridge rifles, muzzle-loading rifles, rifled and unrifled muzzle-loading and breech-loading cannons, wooden warships, ironclads, horses and trains, etc... all at the same time, but it adds more strategic thinking to the game.
- Especially in the late game when unit upgrades essentially create entirely new units, like jumping from Lancer to Landship, Cavalry to Light Tank to Helicopter Gunship, Musketman to Gatling Gun, etc. it is odd how easy it is to make those upgrades. In the current game unit tier strength and upgrade costs are in this odd symbiotic relationship where either because upgrades are so cheap tier strength increases are small, or because tier strength increases are small upgrades must be cheap. I think increasing both will make the game more interesting while preserving balance. After all, if a Landship were to properly dominate a Lancer, we wouldn't want it to be easy to upgrade every single one of our Lancers once we get oil on-line. Instead, if we made upgrades actually expensive and difficult for all units, we could make those special units even more interesting because we could lean more into their unique capabilities to buff them to the required level instead of just mere CS buffs.
Problem 3: Late-Game unit counts are incredibly high and make late-game wars far less enjoyable and interesting.
Spoiler Explanation :
- While it is very thrilling to manage multi-front wars, I think we all agree that there are simply too many units in the late game. Oftentimes on a main front you'll have units three, four, even five rows deep depending on the terrain, and much of you micro is put not towards directing your units against your opponents, but on managing your rear lines and cycling through your troops effectively. In short, that map simply cannot handle how many units armies will have and it makes combat incredibly undynamic and uninteresting as compared to mid-game combat.
- Late game wars are grind fests that reward not making mistakes more than making clever plays, which for a game designed around playing against AIs is the opposite of what I think most people would want.
My solution:
tl;dr: increase most post-industrial unit upgrades to a 30-50% CS increases depending on context while keeping total army CS and production costs constant by increasing unit production costs, supply costs of armor/naval units, strategic resource demands of armor/naval/air units, and gold maintenance costs. Make the total cost of training a unit and upgrading it to the next tier more than just training that next tier unit outright.
Spoiler Explanation :
- In my ideal VP, armies would essentially stop growing in total size by mid-Industrial. I think my ideal upper limit for a combined-arms military for a normal sized civ (i.e. 8-12 cities) in the post-industrial phase of the game--from a gameplay perspective--would be ~75 total units, e.g. a two-theatre military would have ~8 infantry, ~8 Tanks/Artillery/MGs/Light Tanks, ~8 aircraft, and ~8 ships in each theatre with ~10 infantry/MGs staying back as garrisons and guards.
- This means increasing the CS of all post-industrial units, decreasing unit supply somewhat while making some units cost more than 1 supply, and increasing the strategic resource demands of some units.
- While I think the gap between Tercio-Fusilier or Knight-Lancer is slightly too large (which is why I used to play EE, but haven't in my most recent games to get a good sense of current VP), it is closer to the ideal than the miniscule gaps between Fusilier-Rifleman-Infantry. Tercio-Fusilier or Knight-Lancer is a ~50% increase in CS, while Fusilier to Rifleman is only ~30% I believe and Rifleman-Infantry just 20%. I think somewhere around 40% is the ideal jump in power for two reasons:
- 1: it creates a strategic lynchpin, i.e. a point in time where technological superiority makes a massive difference and thus must be strategized around. A simple 20% increase in strength is barely more than an extra promotion. Aggressive play should only be strong when a player is making significant strategic sacrifices, such as B-lining bottom-tree techs, and thus the incentives to take those risks, e.g. a new unit tier, should be meaningful. Think about how much you are rewarded when being aggressive in the mid-game for ignoring the awesome bonuses of top-tree techs to B-line Knights, Swordsmen, Cannons, Musketmen, and Fusiliers. Currently, it oftentimes makes more sense for an aggressive player in post-Industrial to go for top-tree techs that boost production as the production bonuses outweigh increases to unit strength, meaning that the empire-building decisions an aggressive player makes look barely different from those a defensive or peaceful player makes. This makes post-industrial play generally more bland than Medieval and Renaissance play (which I think most players would agree is the best part of the game).
- 2: It ensures that newly-created units are almost always stronger than existing units from the prior tier. Prior tier units with even just 2 extra promotions can be nearly as strong as current tier units. This seems wrong to me.
- There should be a much more meaningful difference between armor units and infantry units. Armor units should be more expensive, more powerful, and harder to maintain (i.e. take more than 1 supply slot and use more than 1 copy of a strategic), as it should be impossible to field a nearly all-armor army. Armor units should support infantry, instead of simply being a stronger version of infantry. This might entail more than just making them stronger and more expensive: I think AOE damage to units ending their turn next to tanks and on kills would be a good way to reinforce the idea that Tanks are wedge-units that create gaps in enemy lines that are then attacked by infantry.
- Bomber units should generally be much stronger, but interception should deal much more damage. Currently, it feels like the gap in strength of bomber units in worst-case and best-case scenarios is pretty small. Even against obsolete and unguarded targets, bombers still take some damage while not dealing all that much given their cost, while against well-guarded targets interception is often a risk worth taking. As such there is essentially no such thing in VP as air superiority, either on offense or on defense.
I'm interested to see if other people agree with my assessment, and even more interested in hearing thoughts and counter-arguments from people who feel differently. Obviously what I'm talking about is a massive, fundamental part of VP late game, so I don't expect equally massive change anytime soon, but I just thought it would be good to try to get the ball rolling and see what other people feel.
Last edited: