When a Golden Age worth the investment?

[Ramesses-Rules]

I paused my game to ask you guys this question. I just got a Great Engineer in Thebes. There was nothing particularly urgent for him to do, so I saved him with the idea of using him to rush my next wonder build. Then, a few turns later a Great Scientist popped in Memphis.

How do I decide what to do with the Scientist?

1. Build science academy in Memphis
2. Settle him into Thebes (soon to build Oxford) and then use Engineer to rush Oxford.
3. Start a Golden Age with the Engineer and Scientist.

Is starting a Golden Age ever worth the investment? Cyrus is about 300 points ahead of me, and he just started one! Once I get to Free Speech and crank the cultural slider to 100%, Scientists and Prophets are not worth so much anymore, so maybe use them to start Golden Ages? I don't know.

Thanks!

 

[Wombleburger]

An option that I've been exploring lately is to settle an early Great Engineer (if I am lucky enough to get one). In a recent game I found the early hammer boost he provided allowed me to build all sorts of wonders I normally miss out on.

 

[GreatEngineer]

I just got a Great Engineer in Thebes. There was nothing particularly urgent for him to do, so I saved him with the idea of using him to rush my next wonder build. Then, a few turns later a Great Scientist popped in Memphis.

How do I decide what to do with the Scientist?

1. Build science academy in Memphis
2. Settle him into Thebes (soon to build Oxford)
3. Start a Golden Age with the Engineer and Scientist.

Is starting a Golden Age ever worth the investment? Cyrus is about 300 points ahead of me, and he just started one!

Also what year is it and how many beakers (bpt) are you getting per turn? If your research in Memphis is already high, maybe it's worth the extra 50%, but if Memphis isn't your second or third highest research city (somewhere near 50-100bpt), I wouldn't do that. Do you have a chance of a Great Artist soon? It depends what victory you're going for. Since you're going for cultural, then artists would be supreme, the scientist is best used to golden age, while the engineer would be best used (I think) on a wonder in a culture city.

EditedStuff I originally posted:
How about 4. Settle GE into Thebes? If you have a decent chance of getting Great Engineer already, this'll double the GP points / turn, and he'll give research which'll get help from Oxford also. I would only do that if you have no more wonders you intend to build, however. -- Don't do this as it'll cloud your chance of getting great Artists.
If you're going for a war victory, Golden Age might be best so you can spam out units and suffer no loss in gold or beakers per turn. -- You need to build units to defend your culture and border cities. Big mistake is being open for attack well before you get legendary culture

 

[r_rolo1]

It depends

So, let's go to the basics:

- A GA in BtS gives 1 hammer and/or 1 coin to tiles that already have one hammer and/or coin and gives a 100% multiplier to GPP generation. Obviously the bonus of a GA is strongly dependent of the ammount of tiles worked, so GA tend to be more profitable for empires with big pop.

-Academy gives + 50% in research in the city it is made. That can be a lot or almost nothing , deepending of the city , the specs or the research slider

-Oxford gives +100% research. That combined with the settling of the scientist will give you a assured 6 atleast ... but again it is strongly dependent of the output of the city.

In the end, it is only a matter of beancounting the 3 options and decide what gives the better output for the game situation you have in hands

 

[Sisiutil]

Setting aside your specific situation and answering the general question, is a golden age ever worth it? My answer is yes, but based on the following conditions:

• Golden Ages were greatly improved in BtS. First, you only need on great person for the first one, and second, you can change civics anarchy-free. This latter benefit makes a golden age potentially very valuable for a non-Spiritual leader. Ideally you want to save up several civics changes--at least 2 if not more--and adopt them during the GA. You can also switch to a handy civic (such as Slavery), use it during the GA, and switch out of it by the end of the GA. Obviously, if you're a spiritual leader, this benefit of the GA is not very attractive.
• The increased hammer and commerce output increases in effectiveness with the number of tiles meeting the criteria (at least one or ). So, obviously, the larger your empire (in terms of both number of cities and size of those cities), the better. A mature empire also benefits more--that is, an empire with more of the buildings (forges, markets, libraries, etc.) to multiply the extra hammers and commerce.
• Another benefit of a GA is +100% great person production. So if you are trying to produce a particular great person and need him to assist you with a race (a great scientist to lightbulb a tech on the Liberalism path, for instance), the GA can help you. But I wouldn't start a GA just for this reason; I view it as more of a side benefit.
• Another side benefit: if you're in a tight wonder race, the GA's increased hammer output may help you win it.
• A GA is helpful to one of my favourite military stratagems: queue-building. Build up a bunch of units in your cities' building queues. Start a GA. Switch to the military civics (Vassalage and Theocracy, and Police State if it's available for the increased military production). Pump out all those units with extra XPs. Switch back to more economic civics on the last turn of the GA. Go and conquer someone.

 

[Baldyr]

I really don't have any good measure of when to start Golden Ages or how to make them part of any over-all strategy. I'm not even sure I really get the benefit either - it's like the "We Love the King Day" bonus of earlier Civ versions but in all cities - and for a very limited time. It's not bad, but it doesn't sound like a sound investment of GP either.

Furthermore, my thinking about GP is that unless they are creating a special building of some sort, they pretty much should be settled in a city. Especially early on, because any immediate bonus (like or ) will be dwarfed by the long-term benefit of a Super Specialist. (The exception would be Great Spies, since I tend to use Tech stealing as a strategy.)

Bulbing I don't even agree with as a strategy myself, but I guess it is effective in order to be first to certain game breaking Techs. (The technique seem also to be a staple in high level gaming. I myself am more concerned with not wasting my resources, than to go after any victory or to beat some difficulty level.) There isn't a limit for how many Super Scientists a city can benefit from either, so I tend to pack my research cities full of them!

Hurrying wonders with Great Engineers as a strategy is one that I however can fathom, since it might be my only chance of getting a wonder I'm basing my strategy on. Without a Tech lead there aren't many wonder left to build so even those would be settled then.

Great Works with Great Artist is an effective measure on some occasions, though. You pretty much get all the you will need it the city in question, and even if it might be a better investment to settle him in the long run, I wouldn't get to work all those tiles for an age or two. Furthermore the borders might very well change due to wars over such a long time period.

On Great Generals the jury is still out. I have used them pretty extensively to build War Academies in the past, but am now lead to believe they really aren't that crucial. The extra XP from attaching them to already seasoned units is always nice, though.

To summarize: I'd use any GP except Great Scientist and Great Merchant to get short term benefits if it fits the game situation. Otherwise settle them for maximum dividend of the whole game. Golden Ages also seem like a bad investment. Maybe save those for the late game, when I have more cities, commerce and production?

 

[Ramesses-Rules]

Thanks for the advice everyone. I am going to try the Golden Age to see how well it works, then reload and use the Scientist to build Academy in Memphis (which already has University running scientists) and use the Engineer to rush Oxford, because my goal is to beat a couple civs to Radio/Mass Media to build the culture multipliers. It is year 1620 now, so I should see in about a 400 year trial which strategy worked better. I love to run these little experiments with the game!

Based on the advice given, I am betting the Golden Age works better, because I have the #1 largest land mass and population in this game. We'll see. I have a Defensive Pact with military-giant Cyrus, but that may not prevent Izzy or Saladin from launching a suicide attack on me from overseas. That would definitely ruin the experiment.

P.S. Ramesses says, "Anarchy? What's that?"

 

[GreatEngineer]

...because my goal is to beat a couple civs to Radio/Mass Media to build the culture multipliers. It is year 1620 now, so I should see in about a 400 year trial which strategy worked better. I love to run these little experiments with the game!

At 1620 are you the culture giant? Usually when I go culture I turn the slider to 100% culture after I can build cathedrals in all my culture cities and a hermitage (with Nationalism) in the worst of the three. This usually happens well before Astronomy (aka right around where you are in the game) and I delay that tech as long as possible so as not to obsolete key wonders I have. Then I build culture in my culture cities and either wealth or defense units in the rest. I would check in the domestic adviser to see when your cities will achieve legendary culture after playing with the slider settings before you commit fully.

Based on the advice given, I am betting the Golden Age works better, because I have the #1 largest land mass and population in this game. We'll see. I have a Defensive Pact with military-giant Cyrus, but that may not prevent Izzy or Saladin from launching a suicide attack on me from overseas. That would definitely ruin the experiment.

If you have a defensive pact, I have a feeling you'll be pretty safe from backstabs. Also keep in mind that the Golden Age's commerce bonus will aid your culture per turn if you have your slider boosted nicely.

 

[Ramesses-Rules]

At 1620 are you the culture giant? Usually when I go culture I turn the slider to 100% culture after I can build cathedrals in all my culture cities and a hermitage (with Nationalism) in the worst of the three. This usually happens well before Astronomy (aka right around where you are in the game) and I delay that tech as long as possible so as not to obsolete key wonders I have. Then I build culture in my culture cities and either wealth or defense units in the rest. I would check in the domestic adviser to see when your cities will achieve legendary culture after playing with the slider settings before you commit fully.



If you have a defensive pact, I have a feeling you'll be pretty safe from backstabs. Also keep in mind that the Golden Age's commerce bonus will aid your culture per turn if you have your slider boosted nicely.

My normal strategy is exactly the same as yours. However, this is a very weird game. I destroyed Napoleon with a Chariot Rush right out of the chute, which left only me and Mehmed together on this continent. I tried everything possible to found a religion but failed (Emperor game blues!). I finally got Taoism founded, but that has been the ONLY religion available for cathedral-building. None of the other religions would spread to me before I got to the Scientific Method decision (which, as you know, obsoletes the monasteries needed to build missionaries, temples). So I went ahead and researched SM in hopes of building the Radio/Mass Media culture multipliers to make up of the lack of cathedrals. The issue is whether starting this Golden Age is the fastest way to get there.

No way Cyrus can't build the damn spaceship ahead of me unless I get more multipliers. He's a monster in this game.

 

[Sisiutil]

At 1620 are you the culture giant? Usually when I go culture I turn the slider to 100% culture after I can build cathedrals in all my culture cities and a hermitage (with Nationalism) in the worst of the three. This usually happens well before Astronomy (aka right around where you are in the game) and I delay that tech as long as possible so as not to obsolete key wonders I have. Then I build culture in my culture cities and either wealth or defense units in the rest. I would check in the domestic adviser to see when your cities will achieve legendary culture after playing with the slider settings before you commit fully.

I go a different route when pursuing a culture victory: leave the slider alone. Use a combination of Caste System, farms, and artist specialists in your three cultural cities while researching normally; the combination of culture points from the specialists and great works from all the Great Artists will see you through. It's the best way to keep up-to-date on military techs and protect yourself while going after a culture win.

 

[Ramesses-Rules]

I go a different route when pursuing a culture victory: leave the slider alone. Use a combination of Caste System, farms, and artist specialists in your three cultural cities while researching normally; the combination of culture points from the specialists and great works from all the Great Artists will see you through. It's the best way to keep up-to-date on military techs and protect yourself while going after a culture win.

In my current game, I am going to have to use a modified version of your strategy. Thebes and one of the others has excellent production capabilities, but my third city would take forever to build Broadway, Hollywood, etc. wonders. It is a GP farm with acres of farms but no hills around to build mines for production. I am hoping to settle enough Great Prophets in there to compensate.

With our strategy (assuming we successfully beeline to Liberalism and have 3-4 religions to build Cathedrals, we get our cities to 50K without need to research military beyond Rifles. That is when we turn off science and crank the culture slider to 100%. For insurance, I can nearly always get a Defensive Pact with the top-dog military civ, as in this game.

 

[Sisiutil]

In my current game, I am going to have to use a modified version of your strategy. Thebes and one of the others has excellent production capabilities, but my third city would take forever to build Broadway, Hollywood, etc. wonders. It is a GP farm with acres of farms but no hills around to build mines for production. I am hoping to settle enough Great Prophets in there to compensate.

With our strategy (assuming we successfully beeline to Liberalism and have 3-4 religions to build Cathedrals, we get our cities to 50K without need to research military beyond Rifles. That is when we turn off science and crank the culture slider to 100%. For insurance, I can nearly always get a Defensive Pact with the top-dog military civ, as in this game.

Have a look at the Victoria/England ALC game (use the link to the ALC bullpen in my sig) to see an example of the culture-through-strength strategy in action. I warred like a demon almost all game long and really only focused on winning by culture in the last 100 turns or so (though I did make sure I was first to Music for the free GA and built the oh-so-useful-for-cultural-victories Sistine Chapel, too).

 

[Ramesses-Rules]

Have a look at the Victoria/England ALC game (use the link to the ALC bullpen in my sig) to see an example of the culture-through-strength strategy in action. I warred like a demon almost all game long and really only focused on winning by culture in the last 100 turns or so (though I did make sure I was first to Music for the free GA and built the oh-so-useful-for-cultural-victories Sistine Chapel, too).

Thanks. I checked it out. Only in my dreams do I get such beautiful river locations for my 3 cities at Emperor level. I think I am making a big mistake not going for Music first and fast as you did. I get fixated on winning the Liberalism race at all costs.

I totally agree with you about the program giving you Prophets when the GP odds say they are favoring Artists. That annoys the heck out of me when they come late in the game. I usually just park them in my Wall Street city to produce more gold....not much help when I am dying for a couple more Artists to push my 3rd city to 50K.

P.S. My son is as addicted to Victoria as I am to Ramesses. He just loves those Redcoats!

 

[Higher Game]

Redcoats might just be the best UU.

 

[Ramesses-Rules]

Redcoats might just be the best UU.

Yep, he can't wait to get his Redcoats and start kicking butt.

I get my warmongering done early with the War Chariots (one of the best early UU's) and then settle down like a good holy man for the rest of the game peacefully building my Temples and Cathedrals.

 

[GreatEngineer]

I go a different route when pursuing a culture victory: leave the slider alone. Use a combination of Caste System, farms, and artist specialists in your three cultural cities while researching normally; the combination of culture points from the specialists and great works from all the Great Artists will see you through. It's the best way to keep up-to-date on military techs and protect yourself while going after a culture win.

Yeah I agree this seems like a great strategy, and I'll usually stack as many artists as I can feed in my culture cities. Having that slider up speeds up the process by quite a few turns, you know?

With our strategy (assuming we successfully beeline to Liberalism and have 3-4 religions to build Cathedrals, we get our cities to 50K without need to research military beyond Rifles. That is when we turn off science and crank the culture slider to 100%. For insurance, I can nearly always get a Defensive Pact with the top-dog military civ, as in this game.

I've never posted a save or screenshots of my games, but you just gave a really good play by play of how I get culture wins. Glad to know I'm not alone! Also, have you won like this on Emperor or above? I'm still working on my first emperor win, and getting wonders is much more difficult, so the strategy doesn't seem as effective.

 

[Ramesses-Rules]

Yeah I agree this seems like a great strategy, and I'll usually stack as many artists as I can feed in my culture cities. Having that slider up speeds up the process by quite a few turns, you know?



I've never posted a save or screenshots of my games, but you just gave a really good play by play of how I get culture wins. Glad to know I'm not alone! Also, have you won like this on Emperor or above? I'm still working on my first emperor win, and getting wonders is much more difficult, so the strategy doesn't seem as effective.

Yes, it works at Emperor. That is my current level, and I have won 3 times so far, but I am still struggling and making errors. You must slow down and play carefully to win.

 

[GreatEngineer]

Yes, it works at Emperor. That is my current level, and I have won 3 times so far, but I am still struggling and making errors. You must slow down and play carefully to win.

Yeah, I know I should slow down, but I find if I'm micromanaging too much stuff the game becomes too tedious to play. I automate about half my workers always and often forget to keep my specialists up in my cities, so they grow or work random stuff instead of what I might deem most beneficial. My first Monarch win, I remember, took me 20 hours to play over about 2 weeks. My latest monarch win took around 5, and so I guess I've just become more used to short games.

BTW I've been meaning to say this the whole time and forgot, but you are right. Ramesses DOES rule and you'll notice my signature shows that I really do like him! ^_^