When Do You Begin Improving Tiles?

[Wingednosering]

Just wondering what the general consensus is for acquiring builders. As China it's a no-brainer that you need 1-2 early, but I'm finding that most of the time, I don't get a builder until turn 60+, often turn 100+ because I go for full-out military (and often 1 scout and 1 settler) until then. If I get one from a neighbour during wartime, then that's a huge bonus, but I rarely build them before 1-2 AIs have been wiped out.

I haven't played the Aztecs yet, but I assume they need to be played differently as well when it comes to builders.

For reference I'm an Immortal player (moving up to Deity for my next game).

 

[ShinigamiKenji]

I get 1 Builder for the Craftsmanship eureka, but after that I often leave the rest after Feudalism. I think the "After Feudalism" option needs to be put.

 

[Wingednosering]

Done.

 

[howard.seldon]

I'm at about the same difficulty level. I usually like to go to war after my second city, so I'll usually build two: one to get the Craftsmanship boost by improving three tiles near my capital, and the other to get any luxury resource that requires a plantation by my capital and make two improvements on the second city. I usually won't build them again until I'm done with that first war (or set of wars) and start building cities again.

 

[darkace77450]

Early on I build enough mines and farms to trigger eurekas and inspirations and get a luxury resource. After that, I don't build any improvements until Feudalism.

Edit: the poll question and the question posed in the title aren't the same. Early builders are useful for chopping to speed the production of districts even if you don't want to build improvements until later.

 

[Wingednosering]

Good point. Is it possible to edit the tread name?

Surprised that most people get a builder early. I guess the eurekas are nice, but I was of the opinion that early improvements/resource harvesting weren't worthwhile.

 

[greygamer]

A builder is usually one of the first 4 things I build. The second one is with my second city. It depends how poor the production in my capital is, the extra production towards military units in more important if you have a low production starting location.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

after building 4 my first conquest group of 4 archers (which is my openings build, 4 slinger-archers) ill get 1 or 2.
After feudalism i get lots and lots.
I dont normally get one for the 3 improvement eureka because it will delay my first archer group too much.

 

[MyOtherName]

Surprised that most people get a builder early. I guess the eurekas are nice, but I was of the opinion that early improvements/resource harvesting weren't worthwhile.

Spending 50 cogs to get +3 cogs per turn is an incredibly good deal; maybe even more cost-effective than a settler. And there's chopping/harvesting/eurekas.

You don't always have terrain that allows that allows it, but it's a really good option when you do.

 

[greygamer]

Spending 50 cogs to get +3 cogs per turn is an incredibly good deal; maybe even more cost-effective than a settler. And there's chopping/harvesting/eurekas.

You don't always have terrain that allows that allows it, but it's a really good option when you do.

It does really depend on the situation early on. If being rushed by barbarians on turn 5 early military is a bigger priority (especially on higher levels) but as a rule investing in higher production earlier on is going to pay off. Sometimes I will even make a builder as the first build but usually I like to get a scout out early to find the nearest source of horses/iron.

 

[ShinigamiKenji]

Improving luxuries and strategic resources is also pretty important. But, as I said, while I build one or two early game, I usually leave the bunch of them for after Feudalism.

 

[The googles do nothing]

The builder eurekas are:
The wheel
Horseback Riding
Irrigation
Iron Working
Masonry
Craftsmanship
Shipbuilding

That's all i can remember off the top of my head. Getting some of that science plus improvement bonuses make that first builder a great value.

 

[TheGreatSleepyOne]

I did not vote in the poll because I don't have one single, dominant strategy with regards to the early game. I will elaborate, however.
On a typical Continents, Immortal, Standard size/speed: I will forgo early builders in favor of a pack of slingers > archers. The fact that the AI starts out with an extra city means that I pretty much HAVE to expand by conquest. On the higher difficulties (Immortal and Diety), I tend to use gold to buy my first builder/trader. This is of course after upgrading a pack of archers.

With an isolated start, (detailed worlds mod) Small continents/ Archipeligo/ Island plates, I will tend towards a monument into builder into whatever defense I need for barbarians. Then I use gold to buy the first settler, and churn out waves of settlers after Shipbuilding.


TL;DR:
Early builders come with the risk of not having enough forces to defend yourself.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

The builder eurekas are:
The wheel
Horseback Riding
Irrigation
Iron Working
Masonry
Craftsmanship
Shipbuilding

That's all i can remember off the top of my head. Getting some of that science plus improvement bonuses make that first builder a great value.

The good thing is that you get all those if you conquer a city with the needed tile improvement. As well as the one for a water mill, for districts. And of course conquest also provides you cities, often with holy sites that in turn may give you a religion.

In other words, a builder gives you some good things. A group of archers gives you everything.

 

[Victoria]

Not everyone wants to play war. I do get the idea that killing gives you everything. Its mentioned in practically every thread one way or another.

The early eurekas and cogs combined is a powerful argument and then craftsmenship allows half price slingers. I find it a very nice kick start, my slingers are then more than half as fast to build and if you are building 4 or more, why woukd you not get the builder first?

After this, I have the choice of 30% off builder up to feudalism or after I get 66% value add for the 2 charges. I do not always wait but am aware things scale. I will not necessarily chop straight after feudalism but get farms while I push a few cheap envoy civics then chop. I mean chopping earlier can get that CZ in a second city a lot faster... Or in the case of England with half price harbors, a lot earlier.

 

[ShinigamiKenji]

The good thing is that you get all those if you conquer a city with the needed tile improvement. As well as the one for a water mill, for districts. And of course conquest also provides you cities, often with holy sites that in turn may give you a religion.

In other words, a builder gives you some good things. A group of archers gives you everything.

The Craftsmanship civic comes with Agoge, which decreases army production costs. Why not get it earlier to churn out more units?

 

[The googles do nothing]

The good thing is that you get all those if you conquer a city with the needed tile improvement. As well as the one for a water mill, for districts. And of course conquest also provides you cities, often with holy sites that in turn may give you a religion.

In other words, a builder gives you some good things. A group of archers gives you everything.

I had not though of it that way, very good point. I play too conservative and take the sure things sooner rather then waiting to capture them

 

[greygamer]

The Craftsmanship civic comes with Agoge, which decreases army production costs. Why not get it earlier to churn out more units?

Agoge helps if you have poor production, unfortunately you need 50 production to make the builder and then it will take 3-6 turns to improve 3 tiles. So the question is will it pay you back in the time it would have taken to make 4 slingers (35 production each = 140+50)? If your capital has good production from 3 tiles then you could probably get 2 or more slingers before unlocking agoge so you are probably only saving 35 production. If it has poor production then it might make sense as the extra 3 production from improving tiles will make a big difference, but it will take longer to make the builder as well. Also a tribal village might give you the tech boost anyway.
For me it makes more sense when building archers rather than slingers of course ymmv

 

[ShinigamiKenji]

Agoge helps if you have poor production, unfortunately you need 50 production to make the builder and then it will take 3-6 turns to improve 3 tiles. So the question is will it pay you back in the time it would have taken to make 4 slingers (35 production each = 140+50)? If your capital has good production from 3 tiles then you could probably get 2 or more slingers before unlocking agoge so you are probably only saving 35 production. If it has poor production then it might make sense as the extra 3 production from improving tiles will make a big difference, but it will take longer to make the builder as well. Also a tribal village might give you the tech boost anyway.
For me it makes more sense when building archers rather than slingers of course ymmv

Most of the time the policy arrives just in time for my 3rd Slinger. There's also an increase in yields, which leads to even shorter build times. My 4th Archer and 2nd Warrior are done much shorter this way.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

If you just start building slingers from the start, youll generally have 4 of them around turn 20.
Seems hard to me to have agoge much earlier than that. A few turns maybe, but not enough to be significant.

Second and more important, to do 3 tile improvements, you'll need to research mining while you need archery. Getting a slinger kill is not guaranteed so going straight for archery is needed if you want to be sure to have it in time to get those 4 archers going asap. You also dont always have 3 tiles to be mined and will be forced to irrigate tiles which is a waste of worker actions.

Most importantly, the worker would have to be your first build. Try playing GOTM6 and start with a worker first please. In GOTM6 which just ended you simply die to agressive neighbours if you do not start with military units but even in good case scenarios it will probably result in barbs scouting you and then your slingers/archers being busy killing all the crap that comes out of that barb camp for a while before they can attack another civ. If it were safe, i would seriously consider it even if it delays my first archer group a little bit but gives me 3 improved tiles to make up for it.