When is the best time to start building the Pyramids ?
- Thread starter scy12
- Start date
- 670 so early it is great.InvisibleStalke
Emperor
I will always build Pyramids if industrious - at least on Monarch. The industrious bonus makes it pretty achievable and you are also likely to get the great library - the combination of early representation + great library + lots of settled great scientists is very powerful.
It's possible but very difficult, It's been done on the higher levels, it's just that you are better off building settlers, workers and Military Units to gain more land, and we all know land and Population is power. you'll gain a much more powerful advantage with land and Pop then with a Wonder.
Generally speaking no, It's a choice between either the Oracle Slingshot to CS or building the Pyramids. I personally Don't know of any method where you can take both unless you're lucky and Industrious. Well good luck if you do make an Attempt at getting both without some crazy Aggressive leader attacking you once they find out you've been neglecting your military.
well I do have an Idea but it requires you to switch Civics and have alot of reserved cash. You could theorically Cash Rush the Oracle under Universal Sufferage, but I wouldn't know how much it'd cost.
InvisibleStalke
Emperor
Both Oracle and Pyramids are very doable with Industrious - at least on Monarch. Usually you have a good chance of either stone or marble so one will be cheap. My standard start with an Industrious leader on Monarch is:
- Build worker, warrior, settler, worker, settler in capital
- Settle three cities. All will be production cities initially. Try to get copper in one and either stone/marble in other. Once I got both stone and marble.
- Research BW, either ag or ah depending on resources, masonry, mysticism, polytheism and priesthood.
If I have stone, my three cities build Stonehenge, Great wall, Oracle and Pyramids. If I have marble my three cities build Parthenon, Oracle, Temple of Artemis and Pyramids. Usually I get all of them, occasionally I miss one but I get a lot of gold for the hammers invested. Note that I wouldn't be trying for CS with the Oracle - either COL or Metalcasting (good for industrious leader).
I miss out on the land grab, but having three strong production cities and excellent research from the pyramids positions me very well to raise an army around catapults.
It is a semi-risky strategy though - you need either great wall to deal with barbs, or rely on the huge amounts of culture you will generate to fogbust. A lot of the time the AIs will fogbust for you though.
The other problem is that you are militarily weak. On Monarch I finished all my wonders just in time for Alex to come calling. Luckily the AI at this point isn't too clever at warring and your cities are really hard to capture due to their culture. Your production cities can also raise an army quickly once they have finished their wonder building rush.
- Build worker, warrior, settler, worker, settler in capital
- Settle three cities. All will be production cities initially. Try to get copper in one and either stone/marble in other. Once I got both stone and marble.
- Research BW, either ag or ah depending on resources, masonry, mysticism, polytheism and priesthood.
If I have stone, my three cities build Stonehenge, Great wall, Oracle and Pyramids. If I have marble my three cities build Parthenon, Oracle, Temple of Artemis and Pyramids. Usually I get all of them, occasionally I miss one but I get a lot of gold for the hammers invested. Note that I wouldn't be trying for CS with the Oracle - either COL or Metalcasting (good for industrious leader).
I miss out on the land grab, but having three strong production cities and excellent research from the pyramids positions me very well to raise an army around catapults.
It is a semi-risky strategy though - you need either great wall to deal with barbs, or rely on the huge amounts of culture you will generate to fogbust. A lot of the time the AIs will fogbust for you though.
The other problem is that you are militarily weak. On Monarch I finished all my wonders just in time for Alex to come calling. Luckily the AI at this point isn't too clever at warring and your cities are really hard to capture due to their culture. Your production cities can also raise an army quickly once they have finished their wonder building rush.
sunrise089
Not that good
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- May 24, 2006
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- 798
I would probably only build it if I were Industrious and had stone. Otherwise the Oracle and Parthenon are simply much more appealing to me. Now, if I played a SE it would probably be a different story.....
scy12
Deity
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- Feb 17, 2007
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- 5,181
After a little testing i like Ramses for a SE Pyramid's representation game. Philosophical is a trait that fits nicely with SE and so are Spiritual (Pacifism , religions , caste system ) and of course undoubtedly industrious. So i like the results i get with Ramses
The problem is as Egypt you want to be using the amazing War chariot rush. By the time you have finished your army and you start focusing on the mids sometimes it is too late. So i want a more specific advice .
When shall i start the mids and when the chariots ? How many cities ? I Usually choose three cities two production (or hybrid) and one which is mostly farmed. Or i try to use my best production city for first the chariots , then the mids.
The problem is as Egypt you want to be using the amazing War chariot rush. By the time you have finished your army and you start focusing on the mids sometimes it is too late. So i want a more specific advice .
When shall i start the mids and when the chariots ? How many cities ? I Usually choose three cities two production (or hybrid) and one which is mostly farmed. Or i try to use my best production city for first the chariots , then the mids.
I would tend to go for the Pyramids first if Industrious with Stone. Especially on higher difficulty to be sure you are not beat to the wonder. With three cities you should be able to build barracks and chariots in the other two until your main production city is done with Pyramids. Besides, War Chariots IMO have a long window for early attack. Spearmen are the only early units that can defend and even then 2-1 odds will usually do the job. If need be pillage the enemy's metal and you are good till longbows.
Check out the walkthrough in my sig. it is a game with Ramses, Pyramids and an early War Chariot rush.
gettingfat
Emperor
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- Nov 7, 2003
- Messages
- 1,417
All the Pyramid-oriented strategy may work, but may also fail at Monarch or higher levels. Maybe let me talk about the negatives:
IMHO, In short, Pyramid rushing can only be kept in mind as ONE of the potentially useful strategy. The weak military (and associated barbarian and aggressive AI problems), slow early expansion, lack of resources (forests and stone) must always be kept in mind. If they are too overwhelming, leave it to the AIs and make sure you survive first.
- Most strategies are based on chopping. In reality you may not have enough forests near your first two cities. If you have a floodplain/desert start or jungle start the health issue will kill your city really soon.
- Stone is actually not that common.
- The two-city strategy means you have only one city building military units. If you don't have copper and horse connected (quite common with only 2 cities) warriors are not good enough to hold off the barbarians even this is all you build. People talk about building GW first. The combined number of hammers of a GW and a Pyramid is huge. I'm not quite sure how this is so doable without quick access to stone.
- The three-city strategy means you need to use your second city to pop an additional settler. It further weakens your military production. In that case it's very likely barbarian axes are popping everywhere.
- In pangnea or non-isolated continent maps the AIs close in very very fast on the human player. Unless you're lucky holding a choke point with a good size backyard chance is you will not be able to find a 4th city spot. Because the cultural border will be in contact very soon and you will receive the negative dip. modifiers, chance is if you run into any aggressive AIs (e.g. Montzy, Alex) or opportunistic AIs (e.g. the two French jexks) they will declare war on you very soon, who probably ranks last in the power rating at that point.
IMHO, In short, Pyramid rushing can only be kept in mind as ONE of the potentially useful strategy. The weak military (and associated barbarian and aggressive AI problems), slow early expansion, lack of resources (forests and stone) must always be kept in mind. If they are too overwhelming, leave it to the AIs and make sure you survive first.
futurehermit
Deity
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- Apr 3, 2006
- Messages
- 5,724
Pyramids are phenomenal, although indeed costly. Without industrious and without stone, I would avoid them. However, with industrious and/or stone, I would always go for them assuming sufficient hammers and forests. You can only support a few cities early on anyways, so imo you might as well build a wonder and none are better than pyramids.
Someone in this thread said it already: the combination of pyramids + GL + scientists and (I would say lightbulbed) GSs is hands down the most powerful economy you can have in the 1st 3 eras. No one can convince me otherwise as cottages just take too long to grow to match the base beakers from representation scientists combined with the lightbulbed beakers from GSs (a CE will of course have a gpfarm, but multiple specialist cities WILL generate a few more).
As for when to build them, it is no good to build them if you can't leverage them immediately. To do this you want to have 2 others cities as has been mentioned. So, get out a couple settlers and a couple workers then start chopping the pyramids in your capital. As has been mentioned, if you have stone that's obviously huge. Your first city should claim a military resource and 2nd should claim stone if available or else whatever. All cities should be built with an eye toward surplus food.
You should try and have pyramids built by 1000BC to be safe.
People say that pyramids puts you behind militarily--and it does in the short term. But, keep in mind that it also unlocks police state which allows you to pump out military faster to play catchup. Then slam it into representation and watch your research soar.
Someone in this thread said it already: the combination of pyramids + GL + scientists and (I would say lightbulbed) GSs is hands down the most powerful economy you can have in the 1st 3 eras. No one can convince me otherwise as cottages just take too long to grow to match the base beakers from representation scientists combined with the lightbulbed beakers from GSs (a CE will of course have a gpfarm, but multiple specialist cities WILL generate a few more).
As for when to build them, it is no good to build them if you can't leverage them immediately. To do this you want to have 2 others cities as has been mentioned. So, get out a couple settlers and a couple workers then start chopping the pyramids in your capital. As has been mentioned, if you have stone that's obviously huge. Your first city should claim a military resource and 2nd should claim stone if available or else whatever. All cities should be built with an eye toward surplus food.
You should try and have pyramids built by 1000BC to be safe.
People say that pyramids puts you behind militarily--and it does in the short term. But, keep in mind that it also unlocks police state which allows you to pump out military faster to play catchup. Then slam it into representation and watch your research soar.
In 90% of my games I can get both GW and the Pyramids at Prince if that is what I am going for. I usually lose the Oracle, but to be honest I never found it that useful. I can get just about as many free techs by sending out a few more scouts early to pop huts.
I usually play with 6 civs and raging barbs, so the GW is essential to slow the other civs down some.
But there are so many variations in how to play this game that any discussion of WHETHER to build them has to take a whole bunch of things into account.
I usually play with 6 civs and raging barbs, so the GW is essential to slow the other civs down some.
But there are so many variations in how to play this game that any discussion of WHETHER to build them has to take a whole bunch of things into account.
That is not totally true if you have slavery - every time a city gets to the unhappy stage, rush a settler or worker.
The bottom line is, if you are isolated the pyramids are a lot more useful than if you have nearby civs. If I have a lot of unruly neighbors I usually pass on unless I happen to pop a couple of GE earlier than usual.
