When other civs come a-begging

[OneOfOldiest]

1) It's the AI civs turn.
As far as I can tell, there is NO way to modify the request by dickering to reduce the gold amount to something I'm willing to part with. (In the AI's turn phase, I've never been able to modify the boxed gpt or gold amounts because the cursor is stuck as a revolving globe, which is apparently not pointy enough to highlight a boxed amount.)

It's not true. You must carefully click on amount boxes middle part then offer will not be cleared and you will be able to corect gold amount.

 

[Ford]

1)
If they were REALLY truly in dire straits, I might be sympathetic. But when I just had checked their finances in Diplomatic Relations during my part of the turn, and there I saw they had in excess of 1,000 gold and they were gaining >20 gpt, that strikes me as a scam.

This says more about your mindset than about the game, and I'm actually surprised there are so many players here taking this as a personal affront. It's not a scam, it's just a mechanic that is giving you the chance to improve your diplomatic relations with the AI you are friends with.
You know it's going to happen when you accept the offer of friendship, it's part of the deal, and if accepted brings a huge boost to your friendship.

 

[Aristos]

I gave Askia 658 gold.

Two turns later he declared war on me. (The first time's he's ever DoW me)

From that day on, I realized the only reason AIs want money from you is to use it against you.

... and at the same time prevent you from using it (and effectively, lowering your military power ratio, which again increases the chance of DoW).

As for human player requesting, of course we can do that... just put a one-sided trade on the table and click Propose; it's exactly the same, and in rare occasions, AI accepts (I remember it happening to me at least once, but don't have a date/version/proof).

 

[CaptainPatch]

I realized the only reason AIs want money from you is to use it against you. Heck, I'm going to guess they try to weasel you out of your money so you can't keep a hold on your city states.

To be honest, I think when Friends come asking for a significant percentage of your surplus wealth, it's just the program trying to "balance" the scales" of power between the competitors. As in, the human player is starting to stretch out his lead in the game. Luxuries = Happiness, which if you have enough of it gives you freedom to have more units in play. Lots of money allows you to quick-build units and structures, abruptly changing the balance of power.

That is, IF you actually give what is asked for, in hopes of getting some kind of Diplo bonus. With someone that is most likely a Friend already anyway.

I've made a practice of _politely_ refusing the requests. I'd rather have the flexibility in spending for MY material gain than help others close the gap on whatever lead I may have. Hasn't hurt my Diplomatic relationship with anyone. Yet. (That I can tell.)

 

[Smokeybear]

I've always felt that the proper way to phrase "A friend in need is a friend indeed" should be punctuated as "A friend in need is a friend? Indeed (not)!"

An AI friend is a friend in need, indeed.

 

[Louis XXIV]

With luxuries, I just think of myself as a pusher. I get them hooked and, when they come back, I charge them full price. They only ask for the extra copy, not the original, so I'm not losing happiness I'm just not gaining it by trading someone for a luxury (although, if they had a luxury, I'd probably have traded it before I got the request).

With money, I've always said no. I usually need it for a specific reason at that moment and don't want to have to wait longer by paying the AI.

 

[Xiao Xiong]

But I can spare a lux 75% of the time. -4 happiness is not always a problem to me, and I can start charging for it later.

I have never seen them beg for your last lux, or ask for gpt when you have already got a gpt deal running with them.

I used to interpret the begging as a sign that I messed up and forgot to trade a lux. In every case they beg, you just missed an opportunity to trade.

However, I now only trade with the AI on favorable terms, lux for lux, and only accept 6 or 7 gpt, if they only will give me 3 or 4 then no deal.

Unless you have something better in mind, like a lux for lux trade, the diplo bonus may be worth it. But, bear in mind you are helping them golden age. If it's a civ that gets big bonuses in a golden age, or they built a wonder that gives bonuses, think twice about ever giving them a lux.

 

[Aldor]

It is tiresome, but I still give them the lux, if I have plenty of it. But when they ask for most of my Gold, I draw the line. In a game the other night, I only had 1,000 gold (I had purchased a bunch of stuff earlier), and Egypt wanted 860 of it.

What gets me is that nine times out of ten, as soon as they offer you a declaration of friendship and you accept, they will ask for free stuff within 5 turns (at least it seems that fast to me).

An AI asking for DoF (and you accepting it) is a hint for YOU to visit them on the next turn and offer them trade deals

But with gold requests, I mostly do as you do: If they're unreasonable, I'll just decline.

 

[beestar]

Does the AI ever beg from other AIs? (Would we have to look into the code to understand this?)

 

[Walter R]

This says more about your mindset than about the game, and I'm actually surprised there are so many players here taking this as a personal affront. It's not a scam, it's just a mechanic that is giving you the chance to improve your diplomatic relations with the AI you are friends with.

An interesting viewpoint, I never thought of it that way.

 

[Dogmouth]

This says more about your mindset than about the game, and I'm actually surprised there are so many players here taking this as a personal affront. It's not a scam, it's just a mechanic that is giving you the chance to improve your diplomatic relations with the AI you are friends with.
You know it's going to happen when you accept the offer of friendship, it's part of the deal, and if accepted brings a huge boost to your friendship.

The negative attitude is probably an artifact of earlier versions that gave you a negative modifier for saying no. This malus was pretty irksome combined with the often absurd requests from the AI (can you imagine a country in the real world getting indignant when an ally refuses to gift a third of its GDP with absolutely no strings attached?) Kudos to Firaxis for fixing it.

 

[RonMar]

I usually decline their outrageous requests, but on my turn, I try to remember to check their diplomatic page for their actual financial situation. Often, I give them a hundred or two gold, especially if they are actually in dire straights. I get a short, temporary green "we have traded recently" modifier.

 

[Aristos]

Does the AI ever beg from other AIs? (Would we have to look into the code to understand this?)

Yes, and yes:

/// Is this AI willing to make a request of ePlayer
bool CvDiplomacyAI::IsMakeRequest(PlayerTypes ePlayer, CvDeal* pDeal, bool& bRandPassed)
{
	bool bFriendly = GetMajorCivApproach(ePlayer, /*bHideTrueFeelings*/ true) == MAJOR_CIV_APPROACH_FRIENDLY;

	if(bFriendly && IsDoFAccepted(ePlayer))
	{
		// Is there something we want?
		bool bWantsSomething = false;
		// Is there a strong reason why we want something? (added to rand roll)
		int iWeightBias = 0;

		// Luxury Request
		if(!bWantsSomething)
			bWantsSomething = IsLuxuryRequest(ePlayer, pDeal, iWeightBias);
		// Gold Request
		if(!bWantsSomething)
			bWantsSomething = IsGoldRequest(ePlayer, pDeal, iWeightBias);

		if(bWantsSomething)
		{
			// Random element
			int iRand = GC.getGame().getJonRandNumVA(100, "Diplomacy AI: Friendly civ request roll. (%d; %d)", (int)GetPlayer()->GetID(), (int)ePlayer);

			iRand += iWeightBias;

			if(iRand >= 67)
			{
				bRandPassed = true;
				return true;
			}
			else
			{
				bRandPassed = false;
				return false;
			}
		}
	}

	return false;
}

No distinction whatsoever in the code for human player; the code above runs for every AI, in every turn.

Another interesting thing is that the check for luxury request comes before the check for gold request; therefore, if you want to avoid the usually outrageous gold request, ALWAYS have a luxury they need at hand so you can secure both a manageable request AND the diplo bonus (that is, if you are really cultivating that relation).

CvDiplomacyAI.cpp: line 4714

 

[beestar]

That's totally cool. So the AI may receive positive diplo from another AI if they accede to the gift request!

Thinking of it from the giving side: is the AI's willingness to accede to another AI's gift request handled by the same routine as their willingness to accede to a human demand? Presumably not, since the former is benign and the latter is "hostile".

What I'm getting at is, is it possible for the human to request a gift in a way that is handled by the same benign algorithm? Is it just going to the trade screen, and asking for 400 gold and offering nothing in exchange?

 

[Aristos]

EDIT: never mind.

 

[VictusUmbra]

What I find annoying is you can't do the same in reverse. If you went to them and said "Hey can I haz sum citrus cuz you got 4 and I'ze got -4 happiness." their response would be "This is never going to get anywhere if you don't offer a fair deal."

 

[CaptainPatch]

What I find annoying is you can't do the same in reverse. If you went to them and said "Hey can I haz sum citrus cuz you got 4 and I'ze got -4 happiness." their response would be "This is never going to get anywhere if you don't offer a fair deal."

That actually is the same as you Refusing a gift request. And probably, it's the response you get if that civ isn't super-Friendly with you. I don't know just how Friendly a civ has to be to _give_ you something for nothing, but I'm sure the AI's criteria is MUCH more severe than that of most players. (Who are thinking, "If I _give_ them this, I get a significant Diplo boost with them , right?")

 

[Aristos]

That actually is the same as you Refusing a gift request. And probably, it's the response you get if that civ isn't super-Friendly with you. I don't know just how Friendly a civ has to be to _give_ you something for nothing, but I'm sure the AI's criteria is MUCH more severe than that of most players. (Who are thinking, "If I _give_ them this, I get a significant Diplo boost with them , right?")

Unfortunately, there is no way; I have to withdraw one of my oldest postings saying that you can "request" to the AI with an empty deal. I found the block of code that basically makes the AI reject any HUMAN proposal that has an empty counterpart.

 

[beestar]

I guess at least it eliminates the Civ 4 feature of 'begging' the AI for gold. If you wanted optimum play, you had to remember to do that with friendly AIs every X turns ...

 

[Aristos]

I guess at least it eliminates the Civ 4 feature of 'begging' the AI for gold. If you wanted optimum play, you had to remember to do that with friendly AIs every X turns ...

Well, yes, and more... the block of code that automatically rejects any human request (empty trade on the AI side) is commented as something like "To eliminate human player exploit of the AI", which clearly points to the intended effect of such code.