When to apply each trait to each civilization

[Rammstein]

@ Lucius Sulla: You didn't change that much in applying the traits, now did you? Interesting though.

 

[Shammurabi]

An interesting article. I'm not sure if America could really be described as 'Scientific': certainly there have been many great American scientists, but whether the culture as a whole can be regarded as Scientific is another question. The fact that some 50% of Americans cling to a clunkingly literal interpretation of the Genesis creation story - in the teeth of all the scientific evidence - would seem to suggest otherwise.

I would say Industrious and Commercial.

 

[Lucius Sulla]

@ Lucius Sulla: You didn't change that much in applying the traits, now did you? Interesting though.

Well, my interest was not to produce a radical change, and I never said the current stats were completely and wholy wrong (just the opposite, in fact, except for some specific cases) , but just to take some initial theorical premises and see where would they take me. Even then, if an artificial effort has been done, it has been towards the game as it is, since I have tended to choose, in case of doubt, current game traits if possible.

 

[Lucius Sulla]

An interesting article. I'm not sure if America could really be described as 'Scientific': certainly there have been many great American scientists, but whether the culture as a whole can be regarded as Scientific is another question. The fact that some 50% of Americans cling to a clunkingly literal interpretation of the Genesis creation story - in the teeth of all the scientific evidence - would seem to suggest otherwise.

I would say Industrious and Commercial.

I opted for scientific due to the fact of the US currently holding most of the most advanced research facilities in the modern era, and having produced a great number of Nobel winners (I think it is the country with more Nobel prize winners... am I wrong here?). What you have said of the americans, could well have been said of every of the other scientific civilizations. It's the quality and quantity of the intellectual elite what counts in this regard. Look at the greeks, for example, and think of the vast majority of superstitious, ignorant people which comprised the majority of the population in the Socratic times.

 

[EddyG17]

I think that the expansionist trait should be redefined. When I first played Civ3 i said "the expansionist trait is for me, fast colonization."
I think every civ should be able to build a scout, maybe after mapmaking. Expansionist civs should recive something like cheaper (shields or population) settlers or a settler with 2 movemnt points.

I think the Incas do qualify for agricultural if you consider that they produced more food than Peru does today.

 

[biggamer132]

@biggamer132:

Thanks, you are completely right, and I had overloooked completely those facts. Those achievements qualify completely for the Industrious trait.

It's just that when I thought of Persia, I rather thought of the Medic Wars, but under this new light, I rather think that they indeed would be better off as Industrious and Commercial. Industrious for they now obvious and big public works, Commercial for their efficient manage of a big for the time empire. Millitaristic and Scientific would be the following traits that could apply, then.

I agree that Zoroastrianism has had a big influence in the history of religion... but more in a cultural way than in a truely mystique and religious way. And it was not quite a drive for them... at least comparred to other civs of their age.

About expansionistic, as you can see, I'm not adjusting it under the light of "domination" but of "exploration", so you will understand why I'm not awarding it to them .

Indeed, it's part of the reason why the Arabs overran Persia so easily and probably why my family is Muslim instead of Zorastrian. It was the first stone in a wave of monotheism, but it wasn't the building itself.

Anyway, expansionist wouldn't be a great trait for them according to your definition (and that of most others). The ships built were for war and not for exploration.

There is also one more Industrious work I forgot about: The canal built by all the different peoples of the empire to allow a clear path into Greece.

Thanks for fixing that, I just thought I'd give some insight Great job on this, by the way.

 

[Calder]

I feel that there are two civs that need an overhaul in there specific abilities; being Persia and Italy. Persia were clearly Militaristic and Commercial, Romans should be Militaristic and Industrious. Other minor changes I would see China as Agricultural rather than Militaristic, and Egyptians Agricultural rather than Industrious. I think the Germans lean slightly more towards Industrious rather than Scientific, and Ottomans perhaps Militaristic rather than Scientific.

 

[MinosTheBlack]

for the most part i can agree with this. Some of the traits assigned to the civs in the game sometimes are obvisley(sic) placed for balance issues only

 

[CyberChrist]

Dunno why people are so set upon civs only having 2 traits each - I use 3 traits pr civ for my own games. Only hard part was choosing 3rd trait for Zulus and Mongols really

 

[kb2tvl]

I did not read all the text but certain taits tend to reflect certain time frames in each civs existance. All great civs has shown each of these traits to some extent.

 

[hr_oskar]

Good job Lucius, I've often been annoyed by some of the unhistorical trait choices by Firaxis. In my mods I generally changed the traits in a similar way to what you have done.

I agree absolutely that Romans should be ind/mil, Byzantines should be religious and the Egyptians and Indians agricultural.

The Chinese seem to have originally been meant to include the Mongols - cf. Genghis Khan as MGL, Rider UU and militaristic trait. Even without the Mongols as a separate civ I disagree with this; the Chinese on their own should definitely not be militaristic. I would probably have them be agricultural/industrious.

 

[EddyG17]

If you use 3 traits you'll came along an inds./com./ agri. civ. it is a super civ.

 

[TerraHero]

i think Agricultural fits the Dutch quite well. Alot of terrain was used for Agricultural purposes (still is). We claimed most of Holland from the sea in use for Agricultural, plus, we are on of the most densly populated country in the world. I think Seafaring and Agricultural is quite fitting for this Civ, seeing as they used to Colonies for Agricultural purposes aswell.

 

[Lucius Sulla]

@TerraHero

Yes, I think they could go very easily as Agricultural... in fact I would not mind at all seeing them like that. It's just that I have in my mind the idea of the Dutch East India Company, and will just not leave it. But Agricultural would be the third or second trait for them (being Seafaring the first natural trait clearly).

Now that I'm checking, it's strange I did not go originally for Sea & Agr, since I tend to prefer going to the current traits... I think I just did not remember the amazing dutch agricultural feats.

@hr_oskar

I agree in this, I think the problems in the Chinese traits comes from the fact they originally took into account the mongol dinasty. The UU is now not too appropiate.

...


Mmm... now that I think... it would not be bad doing a similar thread for UUs... For sure I don't consider the conquistador the best UU for Spain, but the Tercios (which would be a pikeman or musketman upgrade, and dominated the world warfare from 1525 to 1625).

 

[CyberChrist]

If you use 3 traits you'll came along an inds./com./ agri. civ. it is a super civ.

I am sure you would be tempted, but just resist that particular temptation - like I did

 

[IATyco]

The Chinese rider UU is not completly inappropiate, as it reflects its powerful cavelry during the Han dynasty. What the rider UU need is a change of name to make it suit the chinese better.

The militaristic trait is not out of place either, as there were certain periods of great military expansion. However, I do agree that commercial/agricultral suit the chinese better as it reflects its large population and its good system of bureaucracy.