when to be convert other founders

[Thibix Magnus]

*when to convert other founders?

I what scenarios do you aggressively spread your religion to another founder’s cities?

I always play religious wars on neutral ground, non-founders' cities and CS. I never try to convert a founder’s land (unless I conquer it first). Maybe just a few cities if I can spread there first, just to delay the other religion and get a better lead. Beyond that, holding your grip on non-founders is demanding enough and most religious benefits are capped. Uncapped bonuses don’t seem that strong to be worth the additional effort of pushing an established religion back into its home territory.

Maybe to weaken a rival that you can’t conquer who has a good late game religion, like a transcendence or ceremonial founder that relies on its own cities? But that would be in the specific case where it is neighboring your religious area, where conquest is not seen as possible, but a defensive war would be assumable.

As for the world congress, I wonder in what cases it is worth it to actively anger other founders. Something I never tried but that may be easier now, if you can overpower and “peacefully” convert a holy city, does the civ adopt your religion, and would you get a positive diplo modifier with that player… whose religion you erased?

 

[Gidoza]

I'd say if the other founder doesn't have that many cities and you don't think he can beat the crap out of you in a war, then 2 Prophets with backup Missionaries can do the job very easily. If I can take out a Founder, I'll actually prefer doing that to aiming for Neutral-zone cities because Neutrals can always be flipped by another Founder later; if you take down rival Founders, then those Neutrals will stay yours.

 

[Thibix Magnus]

thanks, sounds obvious now you say it... I probably avoid conflict too much when I'm not in an expansionist mindset. Do you ever try converting the entire world with a strong religious civ or is it just not worth the effort? I will try it for fun but I wonder how viable it is in a high difficulty game.

 

[Gidoza]

thanks, sounds obvious now you say it... I probably avoid conflict too much when I'm not in an expansionist mindset. Do you ever try converting the entire world with a strong religious civ or is it just not worth the effort? I will try it for fun but I wonder how viable it is in a high difficulty game.

This answer is a very strong "it depends." On a larger map with more players, this sounds like an unfeasible thing to do, but I've done it in a recent game as Shoshone even against Constantinople, on a Standard Continents map. But I should lay out the stakes to make clear what we're fighting for.

1. Pangea is a different animal than Continents because more religions can more easily spread around everywhere. On Continents you have the luxury of converting your own area, charging up for Renaissance, and then targeting the other Continent; on Pangea, you probably won't have this luxury and will be under pressure constantly.

2. Converting the second Continent (which had two other religions besides Constantinople) took me another 5 Great Prophets and about 30 Missionaries. Or in other words I poured every ounce of Faith I had into it, built Wonders that gave Great People and picked Prophet every time, and made sure to get Open Borders with these people so my Missionaries could reconvert any cities where Inquisitors were used after the initial Blitz.

3. Everyone hated me after this and war declarations definitely followed. I could handle it though and wasn't worried, but this will always be something to watch - I've scarcely encountered an opponent that does not at the very least end his friendship when you crush his religion.

4. How worth it is it? In this Continents game I had, the world amounted to 56 cities, which is worth 5 votes of Religious Authority. It's OK I guess, but it seems on the weak side for votes if you ask me. World Religion Congress resolution, on the other hand, gave me an additional 7 votes, which makes the matter much less trivial. Seeing as everyone hated me anyways, going for Diplomacy Victory at this point is pretty much a necessity and more feasible.

I'll toss in on top of that that my Enhancer was Abode of Peace, which gave me additional Faith and Gold for followers in other cities - but that's the only Enhancer that does this (Vanilla Civ actually had more options around bonuses from rival cities), while the Founder bonuses cap at around 25 or 30 cities, making the extra cities worth little more than the votes.

Is it worth it? Mmmmm...if facing Constantinople, I'd say yes if you can squelch her out otherwise she will be a religious menace for the rest of the game. Beyond that...I'm on the fence tending towards "not worth it" apart from the idea that you can just say that you did it.

Final thought: also depends how big your empire is. If you're capped out for Founder and you only have 5 cities of your own, I'd say those 5 (maybe 6 or 7) Prophets I mentioned would be better as Holy Sites on account of the focused yields.