When to use Great People for techs?
- Thread starter Tholal
- Start date
Nor'easter
Deity
- Joined
- Feb 25, 2007
- Messages
- 2,022
I haven't quantified it in my own gameplay, but in general, bulbing a tech seems more useful in the early parts of the game, before my economy's really going and when I'm not generating loads of beakers. So if I can bulb a tech that would otherwise take me, I don't know, 15 or 20 turns (or if I can bulb myself most of the way there), I might do it, especially if it's a tech that would be immediately useful.
Having said that, though, a lot depends on the specific great person, so here's how I roughly handle it:
Great Bard
I almost never bulb a tech with these guys, but nearly always culture bomb. Again, exception might be if they can bulb an expensive tech that I urgently need.
Great Engineer
I usually try to use a GE to hurry a wonder. If I don't have access to any wonders, and it's going to be a while before I finish researching a tech that allows a wonder, then I'll probably bulb. Very occasionally I might settle a GE in a city to boost production.
Great Merchant
I like to use these guys for trade missions, but in the early game that's not always possible -- you might not have met any rivals, and if you have, there could be barbs and/or animals between you and them, putting a traveling Great Merchant at risk. So if I can't do a trade mission (or build the Nox Noctis), then I'll probably bulb.
Great Prophet
Prefer to use these guys to build shrines or levels of the Altar, but if I can bulb a tech that will found a religion, I'll do that, figuring on eventually building the shrine and getting that benefit.
Great Sage
Usually like to build an Academy, since I like the long-term science boost, but again, if they can get me all or part of the way to an expensive tech that I can immediately use, I'll bulb.
I don't know how helpful that is. I figure you're probably trying to decide how to program the AI for tech-bulbing. I think it's really situational, but best might be to program certain hard-and-fast rules for the AI: e.g., if they can found a religion by bulbing, they should, etc. (If I were doing the programming, I'd probably program them to do what I do with Great Persons, as outline above, but I'm sure others will have thoughts.)
Having said that, though, a lot depends on the specific great person, so here's how I roughly handle it:
Great Bard
I almost never bulb a tech with these guys, but nearly always culture bomb. Again, exception might be if they can bulb an expensive tech that I urgently need.
Great Engineer
I usually try to use a GE to hurry a wonder. If I don't have access to any wonders, and it's going to be a while before I finish researching a tech that allows a wonder, then I'll probably bulb. Very occasionally I might settle a GE in a city to boost production.
Great Merchant
I like to use these guys for trade missions, but in the early game that's not always possible -- you might not have met any rivals, and if you have, there could be barbs and/or animals between you and them, putting a traveling Great Merchant at risk. So if I can't do a trade mission (or build the Nox Noctis), then I'll probably bulb.
Great Prophet
Prefer to use these guys to build shrines or levels of the Altar, but if I can bulb a tech that will found a religion, I'll do that, figuring on eventually building the shrine and getting that benefit.
Great Sage
Usually like to build an Academy, since I like the long-term science boost, but again, if they can get me all or part of the way to an expensive tech that I can immediately use, I'll bulb.
I don't know how helpful that is. I figure you're probably trying to decide how to program the AI for tech-bulbing. I think it's really situational, but best might be to program certain hard-and-fast rules for the AI: e.g., if they can found a religion by bulbing, they should, etc. (If I were doing the programming, I'd probably program them to do what I do with Great Persons, as outline above, but I'm sure others will have thoughts.)
I acutally usually bulb with a Great Artist.
But I think the issue often is speed vs. long-term. Bulbing of course gives a tech fast, and there are a few consequences:
Allow to build a unit or building , or even a wonder. So for instance, it makes a lot of sense to bulb a religion to be able to build the shrine, for the Amurites to bulb Knowledge of the Ether and to build adepts, etc.
Staying high in tech can also help trade. Bulbing a big tech may also allow you to trade it while it is valuable, so the bulbing can effectively net a bunch of techs. Getting to Engineering to get the Guild of Hammers first can be tremendously valuable.
Usually, 'long-term' benefits are higher by settling - and of course, buidling and academy/wonder/shrine is very powerful.
Late in the game, the great men may be best used for Golden Ages.
Best wishes,
Breunor
But I think the issue often is speed vs. long-term. Bulbing of course gives a tech fast, and there are a few consequences:
Allow to build a unit or building , or even a wonder. So for instance, it makes a lot of sense to bulb a religion to be able to build the shrine, for the Amurites to bulb Knowledge of the Ether and to build adepts, etc.
Staying high in tech can also help trade. Bulbing a big tech may also allow you to trade it while it is valuable, so the bulbing can effectively net a bunch of techs. Getting to Engineering to get the Guild of Hammers first can be tremendously valuable.
Usually, 'long-term' benefits are higher by settling - and of course, buidling and academy/wonder/shrine is very powerful.
Late in the game, the great men may be best used for Golden Ages.
Best wishes,
Breunor
I would like the science bulbing to favour Sorcery instead of its prerequisites. Then, instead of uselessly bulbing Alteration, Divination etc, there would be a great way to get out early mages.
Very useful for quite a number of civs.
In the Realms Beyond forums, there was a great play of researching Drama to get the free Great Artist and then using it to bulb Sanitation for early Aristograrian goodness. But this is advanced play.
Great Prophets are awesome for bulbing religions early. Especially for RoK it allows you to found it without deviating from your normal tech path (mining and mysticism being useful early techs).
Very useful for quite a number of civs.
In the Realms Beyond forums, there was a great play of researching Drama to get the free Great Artist and then using it to bulb Sanitation for early Aristograrian goodness. But this is advanced play.
Great Prophets are awesome for bulbing religions early. Especially for RoK it allows you to found it without deviating from your normal tech path (mining and mysticism being useful early techs).
I like to use Great Prophets for bulbing techs allowing me to found religion. I think it is my highest priority for their use. If they cannot bulb such tech, I prefer to use them other way
Scientist - I bulb after building Academy, if I can grab expensive tech for trade; it does no matter to me what tech it is.
Others - I rarely bulb with them. I like to sttle great merchants for additional food and gold if I run specialist economy (or in my GP farm if I am going aristogarian)
I think AI should always bulb if technology bulbed gives them: free GP, founding of religion, or something like that - in other words, bulb techs that give something for first player having it.
Also, for each civ, it may be worth bulbing one 'crucial' technology, that gives it something powerful - heroes, special units or something.
Besides that - VERY situational
Scientist - I bulb after building Academy, if I can grab expensive tech for trade; it does no matter to me what tech it is.
Others - I rarely bulb with them. I like to sttle great merchants for additional food and gold if I run specialist economy (or in my GP farm if I am going aristogarian)
I think AI should always bulb if technology bulbed gives them: free GP, founding of religion, or something like that - in other words, bulb techs that give something for first player having it.
Also, for each civ, it may be worth bulbing one 'crucial' technology, that gives it something powerful - heroes, special units or something.
Besides that - VERY situational
BvBPL
Pour Decision Maker
I think bulbing is nearly always the best idea. Let me provide you with an example.
Lets say that youre playing the Sidar and popped a great sage. It is late in the game and youve got the Great Library, the Crown, an alchemy lab, a library, an academy, and youre running Caste System so your advantages are skewed heavily towards settling. If you settle him, he could give you 20 beakers a turn (6+1+1+2*(1+.25+.25+.5)).
Alternatively, you can use him to bulb, I dunno, Necromancy, which costs 800 beakers. Note that this beaker cost is about half of what you could get out of a great sage if he were going to bulb a more expensive tech.
Under these circumstances, settling the sage will start to add more beakers than bulbing him after forty turns. Thats a very long time to wait, particularly since youre relatively late in the game, having arcane lore already and all. Plus youll have necromancy to trade.
The situation described above is close to the best possible situation for settling a great person and it only pays off after forty turns.
Obviously whether or not to bulb is very situational. However, if youre attentive to the bulb order you can really come out ahead. Even if you dont know what youre doing with bulbs you can still obtain a significant advantage through bulbing.
FFH2 presents an interesting situation in that great prophets are useful for the altar as well. Of course, it does take 3 prophets to make the altar really useful. Im more likely to want to generate and expend great prophets on the altar than I am to expend other great persons on any given non-bulb activity.
Alteration is an awesome tech. A great sage will bulb Arcane Lore ahead of Alteration and its ilk after you have sorcery. It would be nice to get sorcery a little earlier though through a bulb.
Lets say that youre playing the Sidar and popped a great sage. It is late in the game and youve got the Great Library, the Crown, an alchemy lab, a library, an academy, and youre running Caste System so your advantages are skewed heavily towards settling. If you settle him, he could give you 20 beakers a turn (6+1+1+2*(1+.25+.25+.5)).
Alternatively, you can use him to bulb, I dunno, Necromancy, which costs 800 beakers. Note that this beaker cost is about half of what you could get out of a great sage if he were going to bulb a more expensive tech.
Under these circumstances, settling the sage will start to add more beakers than bulbing him after forty turns. Thats a very long time to wait, particularly since youre relatively late in the game, having arcane lore already and all. Plus youll have necromancy to trade.
The situation described above is close to the best possible situation for settling a great person and it only pays off after forty turns.
Obviously whether or not to bulb is very situational. However, if youre attentive to the bulb order you can really come out ahead. Even if you dont know what youre doing with bulbs you can still obtain a significant advantage through bulbing.
FFH2 presents an interesting situation in that great prophets are useful for the altar as well. Of course, it does take 3 prophets to make the altar really useful. Im more likely to want to generate and expend great prophets on the altar than I am to expend other great persons on any given non-bulb activity.
Alteration is an awesome tech. A great sage will bulb Arcane Lore ahead of Alteration and its ilk after you have sorcery. It would be nice to get sorcery a little earlier though through a bulb.
After drama and sanitation (and philosophy and fishing) you can bulb sorcery with great bards. One can do this while going culture, for example (Keelyn) - but it's definitely situational. I've done it before many times, though.
Bulbing Sorcery easier with great scientists would be broken, imo; it's a very important tech and mages are one of the most important units - and Sabathiel with the form of the Titan and command posts can produce mages instantly...
Dain can tear through the magic line with a peaceful start just fine with only bulbs, actually (get OO (and maybe veil) temple).
Bulbing Sorcery easier with great scientists would be broken, imo; it's a very important tech and mages are one of the most important units - and Sabathiel with the form of the Titan and command posts can produce mages instantly...
Dain can tear through the magic line with a peaceful start just fine with only bulbs, actually (get OO (and maybe veil) temple).
Nor'easter
Deity
- Joined
- Feb 25, 2007
- Messages
- 2,022
One situation in which bulbing is very useful is if you're playing a leader and/or civ that's weak in research: a leader with the Barbarian trait, for example, or a civ that can't build libraries or alchemy labs. In those situations, using a Great Person to bulb is a way of ensuring that you don't fall too far behind technologically.
One that I sometimes do is to get Festivals early and generate a bard. Research education and use the bard to bulb Drama. Use the free bard from drama to bulb Writing. Research Mysticism and run two sages for your academy. This can be a bit more efficient thanjust researching mystisicm for your academy as it is really the only way to win the race to drama at higher levels.
