When to use slavery?

[Andrei_V]

I'd also like to mention that your assertion of 2.2:1 hammers to food ratio is wrong.

Simple math. To grow from N to N+1 you need 20+N*2 food. That is, to grow from 2 to 3 you need 24 food, from 3 to 4 - 26 food. With Granary these figures are halved.

That is 12 + 13 (=25) food for 60 hammers (cost of 2 pops). 60/25 = 2.4, without any tricks with exchanging 1 pop for 60 hammers.

When your pop is down after whip, set to max food from farms and cottages. If the city hits happiness cap before 10-turn penalty period is expired, switch from farms to cottages only. You lose little or no commerce this way.

Moreover, if you whip units / city improvements as well, you can ignore mines completely and work cottages and a few farms only.

 

[Andrei_V]

The state of your capital also matters.

Yes, it does. And please count the Granary (faster growth + extra health from grain farms) among the other things, too. Especially if you're going for an early axemen rush or something.

 

[DrewBledsoe]

It still depends on many factors, since I play exclusive huge maps /marathon / monarch or so, last game I found myself on a continent large enough for 20 cities (eventually) on my own..my cap grew to size 4, then built 9 straight settlers, with other cities contributing military and workers, and I managed to knock the oracle out for COL in my 4th city, which was my main concern.

This I'm pretty sure would have been impossible whipping in capital (on marathon it just wouldn't have grown back quickly enough and farms don't contribute any commerce)..the only early enemy was the barbs, and they're role was much diminished by super fast expansion. I'd 18 cities when I met the rest of the world(with 2 on the way) most producing mega commerce, because a) they got built v early and therefore b) cottages have had plenty of time to grow and c) none have felt the cats tail in any way whatsoever.

3 centuries later, with no conflict yet whatsoever, I'm ahead in tech of everyone accept Cyrus (and thats just Divine Right, which in this game I couldn't care a rats tail about).

So to the way I play in a lot of games, Slavery isn't always the best option, even though I realise it is a lot more effective on smaller maps, with less land, or when you need to produce an army as quickly as possible.

 

[Zherak_Khan]

It's possible to win without != it's suboptimal.

 

[cabert]

salvery is very powerfull because you can RUSH
rushing a settler isn't the best way to do it

Rushing is basically an offensive move.

I do whipping for settlers. But mostly not for the first settler. I do for the 2 or 3rd (often the last) settler. Because i don't want to whip without granary and i don't want to wait until a granary is there before building a settler (my most usual tech order is BW/wheel/pottery = granaries are very likely to come too late).

But i do whip for axes/spears/catapults/ ... a lot.

My most favoured move (just for the fun part of it) is to chop a part of a granary in my conquered cities while they are still revolting and whip the rest as a first thing when they come out of rebellion. Work one turn towards a forge to get the carry over, then whip it.
Sometimes i chop start more than 1 building while under revolt, and whip all of them in the first turn , in order to avoid the starvation and to avoid the minus from whipping with no hammer invested.

 

[Andrei_V]

Rushing a Settler is a very offensive move, since 1) you can start rushing everything else earlier 2) you want to grab a juicy spot or two before AI does.

The only situation when whipping is not good is where you don't have enough food, like a single 3F3H cow pasture for growth.

 

[Araqiel]

Simple math. To grow from N to N+1 you need 20+N*2 food. That is, to grow from 2 to 3 you need 24 food, from 3 to 4 - 26 food. With Granary these figures are halved.

That is 12 + 13 (=25) food for 60 hammers (cost of 2 pops). 60/25 = 2.4, without any tricks with exchanging 1 pop for 60 hammers.

When your pop is down after whip, set to max food from farms and cottages. If the city hits happiness cap before 10-turn penalty period is expired, switch from farms to cottages only. You lose little or no commerce this way.

Moreover, if you whip units / city improvements as well, you can ignore mines completely and work cottages and a few farms only.

If you'll read the thread you'll notice that someone has already pointed out my forgetfullness of the granaries effects. I even acknowledged it.

Rushing a Settler is a very offensive move, since 1) you can start rushing everything else earlier 2) you want to grab a juicy spot or two before AI does.

The only situation when whipping is not good is where you don't have enough food, like a single 3F3H cow pasture for growth.

If you're building a granary before your first settler whip you're actually going to get your first settler out slower than you would by building it normally. Only if you whip at a very low size extremely early will you gain any speed. But in that case you have no granary, a size 1 city, and two less forests.

Whipping is an incredibly powerful tool. But to use it on your first city so very early in the game you're handicapping yourself.

 

[Andrei_V]

If you're building a granary before your first settler whip you're actually going to get your first settler out slower than you would by building it normally.

Yes, probably. But you need not only the Settler quickly, but many other things, like Workers/ Units, etc, don't you? What's good about the second city until improved and connected to the capital?

You recently suggested to take into account the state of the capital, how about the state of the other cities, number of improved land tiles, and things like that?

You start your granary (I'm assuming you research Pottery before BW) right after your first Worker, and while it builds farms/cottages, you build the Granary normally until 30+ hammers and the city size 2-3, then whip for 1 pop.

By that time you typically don't have enough time for cottages anyway, so you don't lose any commerce.

Use overflow for units/barracks, and build them normally until enough pop for whipping again.

 

[Araqiel]

So build a worker immediately at size one, then a granary, whip last 30 hammers of granary, grow to size 4, start settler and whip 60 hammers.

Is that correct? Well in that case you're going to be getting your first settler a little slower, have the same amount of worker turns as anyone else who builds one first, and have a granary in your capital. Your capital could also be size 2/3 depending on how high you grew before you started your settler. This doesn't seem to me to represent any gain. The number of turns your settler is later account for the granary.

Unless your start is extremely short on forests, or you need them for health on a flood plains start, I don't see why you should use the whip. Better to chop your settlers/workers early on so you don't use up population so early.

 

[Andrei_V]

Nobody would stop you from chopping forests if you have enough. I personally prefer to leave many of them until after Math and Org Religion/Forge, but that's my personal preference.

I would not hesitate to chop down a forest or two for my first Settler. Likewise, I wouldnot hesitate to help the rest with pop whipping. So, you grow your capital to size 4 at least (if you don't, you cannot work more cottages, btw), then credit 40+ hammers in a normal way or from chops, then whip for 2 pop.

A single forest chop is only 20 hammers since 1.61, and it's hardly worth early worker turns spent on it. You might as well spend this time on building one more cottage, or something.

 

[Araqiel]

I just tried that exact build order and it came out slower, but that was due to mining gold instead of chopping a forest or two. So again its roughly the same speed as my early tests, 6 turns slower than a more conventional opening. I just don't see the advantages of using the whip for a settler. You can open conventionally and then whip a granary after your first settler. You'll get your first settler faster, still have your granary in the end, and have the same number of worker turns.

I also disagree with you on the value of chopping going down that much. Its no longer an absolute must to chop everything first anymore. If you have pigs/grain/metal/etc. resource that you can improve you should do that first, before chopping was better. But for early worker actions other than those chopping still gives the highest yield for growth. Much more so than cottaging. The only time you need such early cottages is if you're going to try a CS slingshot or something like that where commerce is priority number one.

 

[Andrei_V]

Well, let's give it a try. Let's ask somebody to post a 4000BC initial save, and then play it you in you way, me, on my way, then compare the results at, to say, 2000 or 1000BC. Monarch or Emperor level.

BTW, early cottages may be even more important on higher levels where you have no chances for CS slingshot.

 

[Araqiel]

Well, let's give it a try. Let's ask somebody to post a 4000BC initial save, and then play it you in you way, me, on my way, then compare the results at, to say, 2000 or 1000BC. Monarch or Emperor level.

BTW, early cottages may be even more important on higher levels where you have no chances for CS slingshot.

No thanks. That would give an a decent picture of which of us is a better player, (I'm a tweener Monarch/Prince skillwise depending on whether I take my time or not playing) not which opening is better. You still have yet to point out what advantage your approach gives over a conventional build that immediately grabs a granary after the first settler.

Heavy use of the whip is a great tactic, but I think you should only start the whipfest after you've established a city or two.

 

[Andrei_V]

Well, I thought my point of building the Granary first was obvious: with Granary, you'll have a huge advantage for whipping whatever you need for the second city, a minimum would be a Settler, a Worker, and a Warrior.

This makes it 100 + 60 + 15. If you whip this stuff for 4 pops total, you get 120 hammers for the cost of 60. Well worth having Granary first.

 

[DrewBledsoe]

Well, let's give it a try. Let's ask somebody to post a 4000BC initial save, and then play it you in you way, me, on my way, then compare the results at, to say, 2000 or 1000BC. Monarch or Emperor level.

BTW, early cottages may be even more important on higher levels where you have no chances for CS slingshot.

This comment I totaly agree with, but a question:- when you've whipped to size 2, what are you then building in cap, because a worker or another settler then makes no sense, as its stopping city growing back?

 

[Andrei_V]

This comment I totaly agree with, but a question:- when you've whipped to size 2, what are you then building in cap, because a worker or another settler then makes no sense, as its stopping city growing back?

Barracks, then units. A library or an obelisk maybe, if you have the tech already. Even a wonder would do, just for $$$.

 

[DrewBledsoe]

Barracks, then units. A library or an obelisk maybe, if you have the tech already. Even a wonder would do, just for $$$.

Ok, but then where do you're 3rd, 4th etc cities come from, as your 2nd city won't be in any of a state to build settlers for a while?

Pls note, I'm not disputing your strategy, I'm just interested because it such a different way from how I start out.

 

[Andrei_V]

Well, if you set for Settler at size 2-3, you still hardly get it until after the 10-turn penalty is gone, even though you work farms/mines.

Instead, you just work cottages (slower growth), and build Warriors slowly, until the happiness is back, you can switch to the farms and grow up to 4 in no time. Then whip again.

Meanwhile your 2nd Worker is supposed to improve your 2nd city, which is busy with a Granary on its own. At size 2-3 you whip the Granary as usual, and now you have 2 cities ready to whip.

You can now leave your capital alone, build (whip) a Library and work cottages, and whip more Settlers from the second city. Or whip from both, if you want more cities ASAP.

 

[ronnybiggs]

I don't usually start with the whip until the city gets too big for its britches. I usually chop trees in growing cities to rush production. The slavery/whip rush is best if you have a city that's really populous, with a lot of food, and it's getting too big for health and happiness. Esp. if you can't have good specialists or it's not effective to.

An example is a flood plain city with little production squares. Once it grows to size 5 or 6 it's outgrown its infrastructure, so sacrifice a couple pops to get the library, temple, etc out. With the food surplus, you'll get your pop back in no time. At least, much faster than if you build it with straight production.

And yes, I used this strategy to build Pyramids in a floodplain city.

 

[InFlux5]

My point is that having a capitol at pop 2 or 3 instead of 1 makes almost no difference in the very early game, except for the possible exception of having a gold mine in the capitol and trying for an early religion. Or maybe you get started on a cottage a few turns earlier.

In the end, it is only a few coins for which you are delaying your second city 6 turns or more. At this stage of the game, that money equates to 1 turn of research, if that.

And what good is having a granary sooner rather than later when your happiness limit is 5 anyway? (I'm talking about Monarch here. The truth is it doesn't really matter what you do on lower levels.) Without a granary you will still hit that limit very soon, and - not to sound like a broken record - have lost very little commerce by waiting.

What's more valuable - a few coins in the very early game, or having another city 6 turns (or more) earlier?

I think people who are against whipping the first Settler are down-playing the advantage of having your second city founded ASAP. On Monarch and above the AI tends to expand directly toward you, and will quickly claim valuable resources like copper if you don't get there first. The only way to do that in my experience is to get the first Settler out ASAP. If you wait, you are relegated to whatever city sites happen to be left over after the AI's rapid early expansion.

I would rather have 2 cities at pop 2 than a city at pop 4 and a city at pop 1, especially if the second one has copper. Whipping axes in 2 cities is faster than whipping in 1, and "spreads" the unhappiness around.

Whatever commerce bonus you may get from letting the capitol grow, you will also get from having a second city (which, regardless of its future specialization, is likely to have 1 or 2 tiles which generate coin.) Granted this can be cancelled out by the upkeep cost of another city; but as I said above, it doesn't really matter unless you simply must have an early religion.