Where Are The Turks???

[Battal Gazi]

WHEN I BOUGHT THE GAME -honestly- I WAS EXPECTING TO SEE "TURKS" AS A STARTING TRIBE IN CIV3 AS THEY WERE IN CTP2.BUT THE VERY FIRST SCREEN OF THE GAME DISSAPOINTED ME A LOT...

YOU MIGHT BE ASKING "WHY SHOULD THE TURKS BE CONSIDERED AS AN IMPORTANT STARTING TRIBE?".THEN ONE SHOULD SAY "READ SOME HISTORY" BUT NO;LET ME MAKE THÝNGS BRIEFLY CLEAR FOR YOU...

THEY FIRST APPEARED IN MIDDLE ASIA -before mongols and every other one except chinese- AND SHORT IN TIME THEY BECOME THE WORST NIGHTMARE OF THE CHINESE! THEY FEARED SO MUCH THAT THEY BUILT A WONDER LATER NAMED AS THE "GREAT WALL"...DON'T THINK THAT THERE WOULD EXISTED A HUMAN CRAFTED BUILDING IN THE ANCIENT AGE TO BE WIEVED FROM SPACE IF THERE WERE NO TURKS.

LATER ON THEY MOVED TO ANATOLIA OVER THE MIDDLE EAST DEFEATING THE PERSIANS...WHAT YOU CALL -mighty- MONGOLS ARE NOTHING BUT THE REMNANTS OF ANCIENT TURKS IN MIDDLE ASIA.THEY SETTLED -at last- IN ANATOLIA AND IN TIME RULED THE PERSIANS,THE ROMANS,THE GREEK BECOME MUCH LATER THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE AND DOMINATED IN 1/3 OF THE ONCE KNOWN LANDSCAPE.OTTOMANS CONTROLLED THE WORLD FOR 200 YEARS OF THEIR 600 YEARS LONG EXISTENCE....

ITS NOT OVER YET;THEY STILL EXIST AS A DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC IN THE MEDITERRANEAN.LYING AS A BRIDGE BETWWEN EUROPE AND MIDDLE EAST.8FOR MORE INFO CHECK TURKISH REPUBLIC

NOW CAN YOU TELL ME 15 CIVILIZATIONS SURVIVED SINCE ANCIENT AGES TO OUR TIME?-at least real ones,not imaginary ones like the americans-

I HOPE THAT FIRAXIS® WOULD SEE AND CORRECT THIS FAULT WITH THE NEXT COMING CIV® GAME.thanks to those who read it to the end

 

[boRGa]

I agree with Battal Gazi. Moreover, we should add that the Northern part of the Turks after the migration to the Middle East and Minor Asia. That fraction, knowns as Huns, is 100% Turk and invaded whole Central Europe. Attila is the greatest leader of them that is invaded Italy, to the gates of the Rome. But nevertheless, by the request of the Pope, he retreated strangely as he has got the enough military power to capture Rome. In short, Northern Fractions are also important in history. Now Turkey Turks, Middle Asia and Caucasia Turks are all known as one body. Moreover, we should add Hungarians -the Hun- and Bulgars as the assimilated Turkish tribes. religion is the main factor there...

 

[Jimmicus]

And to think I dropped history half-way through school. Interesting thread guys, even if it does move of the subject of the game a little. I for one would like to see some new tribes in the expansion and the Turks must be near the top of the list for this.

Go the Turks!

 

[andystreet]

Turks - Religious/Expansionist

Leader-Sulaymen

Special Unit-Jezzail(replaces Musketeer, defence of 5?)

 

[Battal Gazi]

ITS GREAT TO SEE PEOPLE HAVING POSITIVE OPINION ON THE SUBJECT BUT ITS EVEN GREATER TO SEE PEOPLE THINKING ABOUT IT -thanks andystreet - BUT TURKS CAN RATHER BE CONSIDERED AS INDUSTRIOUS-RELIGIOUS...INDUSTRIOUS BECAUSE THEY HAVE ALWAYS BEEN COMPLETING THEIR TASKS IN A VERY SHORT TIME.AS AN EXAMPLE BUILDING THE "SELIMIYE MOSQUE" IN BURSA,TURKEY JUST TOOK 7 YEARS OF SINAN IN 16TH CENTURY -namely 2 turns in game -.THE THING SPECIAL ABOUT "SELIMIYE MOSQUE" IS ITS BEING THE BIGGEST RELIGIOUS STRUCTURE OF ITS TIME -yes even bigger and greater than Hagia Sophia in Ýstanbul-.BUILDING SAME SCALED CATHEDRALS TOOK 100 YEARSIN ENGLAND, TOOK 25 YEARS IN GERMANY IN THE SAME CENTURY.


ABOUT THE SPECIAL UNIT,I HAVE SOME IDEAS TOO BUT NOT AS CLEAR AS CRYSTAL YET:


NEW JENISSARY (replacing knight?) ---FOR THE TIME OF OTTOMANS
S.A.T. -underwater attack commando- (replacing marine with multiple attacks and 2 movement points in a turn) ---FOR THE TIME OF MODERN TURKISH REPUBLIC
(for those who don't know turkish S.A.T.'s are considered as the no1 commandos around the world;forget american rambos )

 

[vulture]

I don't much care for the Modern empires that are used in Civ now. It always grates my nerves when the egyptions go to war with the US. At the very least lets cut off the Civs to the Middle age city builders. Shour the Iroquise are neet but come on.. they never built cities so can't really be classed up as equals to the egyptians.

Must haves:
China
Mongolia
Assyria
Babalon
Egypt
Roman
Greek
Persian
Carthoginian
Celt
Zulu
Aztec
Myan
Japan
Aryans
Gupta

Marginal additions
Russia
France
Prussian
Britian
Spain
Turks
Arabs
Portugal
Austria
Burmese
Indian

 

[God]

Well Ottoman Turks also had a realyl powerful navy that lost in finally in a big battle vs. Spain and somebody else which was around the time of their decline.

 

[boRGa]

i dont think that the Turks are Religious guys... cause in the ottoman empire, religion of the nation is only represented by non-Turkic citizens like arabs and persians... however, on the level of governing, there were no arabs... totally turks... so we should not be illusioned by the spell of mosques and "Kulliyah"s. at the end of the day, yes, they have a religion, but turks are not religious. thats my idea... anyway, i used to be sure about the Militaristic/Expansionist attributes... but after that tread, i tend to believe in the industrialism of Turks -mainly, based on the reply of Battal Gazi-

So i think i could be fair...
TURKS---- Expansionist-Industrious
Leader: Attila (or Mustafa Kemal Ataturk)
Special Abilities: Expansionist- Industrious
Special Unit: Janissary 4.3.1
Cities: Otuken, Buhara, Semerkand, Bursa, Edirne, Istanbul, Ankara, Saray-Bosna, Amasya, Sivas, Ýzmir, Selanik...

 

[Battal Gazi]

WELL INDEED TURKS CAN NEVER BE CONSIDERED AS RELIGIOUS IN THE WAY ARABS ARE OR MEDIEVAL EUROPE WERE,BUT THE Y ARE RELIGIOUS AND ALWAYS HAS BEEN.BEING RELIGIOUS DOESN'T MEAN TO BE RULED BY THEOCRACHY OR FUNDAMENTALISM (modern Turkish Republic will never be ruled as Arabs are!!!)...BUT EVEN SINCE THE FIRST AGES THEY BELIEVED IN GODS (nature indeed) AND DID EVERY TECHNOLOGIC IMPROVEMENT ON THIS BASIS (calendars,which animals to eat,which enemies to fight,and even marriage!).BUT EXCEPT THE LAST SICK DAYS OF THE OTTOMANS THEY WERE NEVER RULED BY FUNDAMENTALISM.

BY THE WAY,AGAIN THINKING ABOUT THE SPECIAL UNIT AND CONSIDERING OTTOMANS GLORIOUS DAYS OF ITS NAVY,TURKISH SPECIAL UNIT CAN BE REALLY "SPECIAL" AS THE ONLY SPECIAL NAVAL UNIT IN THE GAME;REPLACING GALLEON OR THE FRIGATE.
LET ME THINK MORE ABOUT IT

 

[vulture]

In that time nearly every nation had state sponcered religion. I can not think of a single society before the Modern US/USSR/China that you call non-religious.

I think the only cultures that can truely be called religious are those where the clergy has true political power to the point that it becomes a driving force in the culture.

China was very religious but was not a Religious culture. The English have long been a religious people but they succesfuly threw off the power or the Papacy in the fifteen hundereds.

 

[Dreifels]

If you ask so: lot of countries are mit included, i.e. Portugal. Big empire in middle age.

 

[Battal Gazi]

STILL PORTUGESE ARE NOTHING WHEN COMPARED TO THE CHINESE,TURKS OR GREEKS EVEN ENGLISH...NOT EVEN TO BE COMPARED WITH THE VIKINGS.

 

[ilkka]

I didnt see Byzantium in that big ol list at all... I can't imagine Gupta and no Byzantium.

Byzantium (eastern rome) civilization lasted for centuries, even longer than the Romans and Greeks, and was distinctly different from both Rome and Greece. Their impact on history in undeniable: they, along with the Mongols and Vikings, made Russia. They preserved Roman and Greek learning. In fact, if they didn't exist, it is questionable if the Soviets or a democratic USA would have ever existed. They also created the Justinian Code, a code of laws thats been copied and imitated for a millenium, in fact the US laws are very much based on these laws.

I'm against having the Iroqouis as a civilization, they were backwards, tribal people. Just like a thousand other worthless tribes, destroyed by real civilizations.

Also the Zulus are a questionable civilization. In my mind they are a tribe who conquered their neighbors and happened to be the most powerful tribe when the Brits came down so they fought back the hardest and became most famous. Their impact on history was minimal, they lasted only for a few centuries, and didn't build anyhting lasting and wonderful like a ziggurat or a city.

 

[ilkka]

Battal Gazi, I understand your keyboard is broken, but could you get a new one.... that capslock being stuck is pretty annoying. It makes everythign you say seem dumb even though you say pretty intelligent things.

 

[FrostFire]

WHAT? The Bulgars assimilated by the Turks?Excuse me pal but you're reaaaally wrong here!WE the bulgars are one of the most ancient races that still exist on the map.The turks really got us off guard in the Middle Ages but before that we were the major power in Eastern Europe along with the Byzantines.Before Russia even existed!And we had a large country a little eastern from the Black sea as early as the beginning of the 7th century AD.Then in 681 we settled on the other side of the Black sea DEFEATING the Byzantines.And here's where we are even now.By the way the first reports of "Bulgars" in Europe are from the Roman era(somewhere around the 2 century AD).We came from Middle Asia along with the Huns.And for our really early history well in the 2-1 MILLENIUM BC our ancestors(nomadic horseman like the Huns and the Mongols) lived in Central Asia.And haven't you heard of Simeon(or is it Simon in english) the Great?During his reign(893-927 AD) our kingdom hat shores on 3 seas-Black,White and Adriatic.In that Golden Age for our civilization we defeted the Byzantines in several major battles.On 9.IX.923 the byzantine emperor himself asked Simeon for peace under the walls of Constantinople.And do I have to mention that Khan Tervel saved Byzantine and WHOLE Europe in 717 AD by defeating the Arabs under those same walls of Constantinople.And what to say about Khan Krum the Fearsome who in 813 besieged Constantinople and the Emperor tried to kill him on a diplomatic meeting to safe his butt.

I agree that Turkey might be included but so should Bulgaria.

 

[FrostFire]

BTW Constantinople is another name for Byzantium.One of the many

 

[FrostFire]

So about the Bulgars as a civ:

Bulgars - Militaristic,Expansionist(taking the place of the Zulus)
Leader - Czar Simeon(the Great)
Special unit - Boljar 5.3.2(instead of Knight)
Citiesliska,Odesos,Turnovo,Preslav,Odrin,Sredecz(modern Sofia),Ohrid,Plovdiv,Varna ......

The Boljars were the nobles.They were expert riders(all the Bulgars were) and with the help of light infantry and some light cavalry have won many battles against byzantine Cataprachts(meaning Immortals) and european knights.Each of them had his own squad of Horsemen wich he equipped with his own money.

 

[The Splang]

Im gona (try to) attach my Turk mod at the bottom of my post. I posted this awhile ago in finished files and got no reports of problems. Heres its stats:

Persians now Turks.
I have 4 GLs, and about 50 city names.
The Immortal is now the Janesairy-A knight with +1 higher attack
The leaders face is the same but he has a different name (I haven't screwed with my mod for awhile so I forgot it but I got it from a Turkish civ player so its accurate)
they are Militaristic/commercial (I edited the other nations a bit to compensate)
Why commercial? because they didn't seem Ultra-religion like and Expansionist SUCKS and becouse they were quite commercial, taxing many a christian merchent

any way, here it is.

 

[King]

I hate when they change history
In 717 the arabs wherre attck on constadinupol but the Bulgars didint helped Byzantium to that the armies of Leon of the east "thema" win him the bulgars the only who they wanted was to take the city.
We can say that arabs and bulgars where more friends against Byzantium and the country who was ally with Byzantium was the chazars.
In 763 near todays Burgas Constadin the E destroy the bulgar armies of Teletzis.
In 770 they try again to attcak with Telerig also the constadin the E win them.
The crum to say al the histrory kill the emperor Niciforos the think who drink Crum his water was the head of the dead emperor.
In 814 Crum died and for that the Constadinupol saved.
50 years later Boris baptised from Byzantine priests and become orthdoxian because the armis of michael was attacking the Burlgaria. Simneon after he tryed to attack finally get back from the lands of the empire at 894. In 896 the Bul;gars are winning and the byzatium pays ony to the bulagarian because they tryed to change the market from constadinupol to salonica.
Perhaps if the Byzantium and Bulgar empires was untited as simeon wanted the history will changed and the turks never get into the balcanic area but the nationalism of both countries dint let them think for the far future. Th ebyzantine gold and diplomacy was make croates and serbs attack on bulagar the craotes win the others no finally simeon didint live to make his final attack to byzantium he died or kiled none knows.
In 971 the bulgar empire went out of Dounavis from the armeis of Tsimiskis Finally in 1018 the Bu;agr empire destroyed from Byzatium ander the Basili the B.

 

[Battal Gazi]

I'M STILL WORKING ON A -better- TURKISH CIVILIZATION MOD.IT WILL BE COMPLETE AT THE TIME I MANAGE TO CHANGE MY SPECIAL UNIT'S NAME.wAIT FOR IT,PATIENCE...