Justin Cray
Chieftain
- Joined
- Jun 15, 2006
- Messages
- 94
"corporate" and "corporatist" is not enough, you need to go full monty with "Guilds" and "Patrician" (if you do that corporations are fun again 
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Where did the Fun go?
- Thread starter JosEPh_II
- Start date
szemek77
Prince
Interesting discussion indeed
Afforess asked important question, but I would ask differently: WHAT IS FUN? In my case, the fun did not go away, cause the game is still about building, exploring, managing conquering, defending and conducting a foreign policy. The rest is just details.
I can easily understand that some of you are tired. I think you can compare the mod to the house or apartment. If you can't stop thinking of changes you "need" (furniture, design, colours, equipment etc.), you won't have any pleasure to live in it. We have so many versions of AND (personally, I love 1.73 with latest patch) that I can't believe that anyone could not find its own way to enjoy the game.
Afforess admited a lack of vision on his side. It is impossible for one person to manage
such a huge project. We all tried to give hints for future development, but the problem is that our ideas were fragmented, not coherent and sometimes contrdictory. I would not call AND "a kitchen sink mod"; however, I feel that some changes were introduced without proper consideration. You just can't act on the basis "yeah, I like it, it will be incorporated into next beta".... This is probably the best advise I can give for CIV 5 modding: make the changes slowly, deliberately, and ONE by ONE, not on mass basis. I agree that Afforess tried to stop this flow, but it was probably to late to save AND from being too fat and too diversified.
As for details: there will be always complains. One perfect example: I hear about
overproduction, while earlier me and others complained about lack of hammers (especially in coastal cities). That is why there should be only one captain on the plane... Afforess - please be less polite and more strict and selective when it comes to mod development. The balance (which some of you call fun) is really sensitive issue, and bringing new stuff by buckets, not by spoon, destroys it FOREVER.
For those, who complain about military - please use the "unit per tile limit" - I set it up
to 20. It really makes the game more realistic, and demanding, when it comes to strategy and tactics. For others: the game IS really modular, and each of you can make some adjustments (as I do for GP birth rate, or resources) to make it exciting as you like.
I don't know about you guys, but even though I have 30+ games on the shelf (some of them still waiting for my attention), I still use my free time mostly for RoM/AND. So the reports of AND's death seem to be greatly exaggerated....
Afforess asked important question, but I would ask differently: WHAT IS FUN? In my case, the fun did not go away, cause the game is still about building, exploring, managing conquering, defending and conducting a foreign policy. The rest is just details.
I can easily understand that some of you are tired. I think you can compare the mod to the house or apartment. If you can't stop thinking of changes you "need" (furniture, design, colours, equipment etc.), you won't have any pleasure to live in it. We have so many versions of AND (personally, I love 1.73 with latest patch) that I can't believe that anyone could not find its own way to enjoy the game.
Afforess admited a lack of vision on his side. It is impossible for one person to manage
such a huge project. We all tried to give hints for future development, but the problem is that our ideas were fragmented, not coherent and sometimes contrdictory. I would not call AND "a kitchen sink mod"; however, I feel that some changes were introduced without proper consideration. You just can't act on the basis "yeah, I like it, it will be incorporated into next beta".... This is probably the best advise I can give for CIV 5 modding: make the changes slowly, deliberately, and ONE by ONE, not on mass basis. I agree that Afforess tried to stop this flow, but it was probably to late to save AND from being too fat and too diversified.
As for details: there will be always complains. One perfect example: I hear about
overproduction, while earlier me and others complained about lack of hammers (especially in coastal cities). That is why there should be only one captain on the plane... Afforess - please be less polite and more strict and selective when it comes to mod development. The balance (which some of you call fun
) is really sensitive issue, and bringing new stuff by buckets, not by spoon, destroys it FOREVER. For those, who complain about military - please use the "unit per tile limit" - I set it up
to 20. It really makes the game more realistic, and demanding, when it comes to strategy and tactics. For others: the game IS really modular, and each of you can make some adjustments (as I do for GP birth rate, or resources) to make it exciting as you like.
I don't know about you guys, but even though I have 30+ games on the shelf (some of them still waiting for my attention), I still use my free time mostly for RoM/AND. So the reports of AND's death seem to be greatly exaggerated....
For me personally I just got tired of starting new games to find a flaw/bug/gamebreaker later on. RoM is kind of unplayable as standalone now. AND has fixed way too many bugs and also adds way too many cool options to ignore, so I vote for a ROMAND dl. Could hopefully also cut down on the extreme initial loading time AND brought. But even with a relative bugfree version (2.91/1.73) there are still some elements that just doesnt work right.
IMHO ROM 2.71'ish was the Golden Age of CIV for me. I think I started 1000's of games since then and only very few lived long enough for 1AD and maybe 2 or 3 went into industrial with none going for future eras. I prey every time that this is going to be the one game that can be played in months, but no luck so far. I have 4-5 ongoing projects (Negative Traits, Timber, Artifacts, Improvement overhaul and Ancient Diverse Warlords among others) but has lost the fun of modding (AND loading time simply too long on my ancient laptop).
IMHO ROM 2.71'ish was the Golden Age of CIV for me. I think I started 1000's of games since then and only very few lived long enough for 1AD and maybe 2 or 3 went into industrial with none going for future eras. I prey every time that this is going to be the one game that can be played in months, but no luck so far. I have 4-5 ongoing projects (Negative Traits, Timber, Artifacts, Improvement overhaul and Ancient Diverse Warlords among others) but has lost the fun of modding (AND loading time simply too long on my ancient laptop).
Arkatakor
King
I agree with a lot of posters here in that change should not happen just for the sake of change. As mentioned before, not being able to build a clone lab and accelerator research complex in the same city really got me. Also I got ticked off with the ridiculously high maintenance costs my cities incurred with all the new % maintenance cost buildings.
Furthermore, I don't get how many research buildings no longer yield percentage increases but rather raw science beakers - I find it confusing. On the other hand some positive changes included extending the duration of monasteries to globalization rather then scientific method.
As for long initial loading times, its of trivial importance compared to other more pressing issues. Although huge progress has been made in what I am about to mention, what REALLY matters is that effort continues to be focused on reducing the end turn times even further, as well as weeding out the remaining infinite loop bugs. I have encountered 2 infinite loops in my last 2 games that went past modern era but have not bothered to report them as I assume that these are known issues.
Furthermore, I don't get how many research buildings no longer yield percentage increases but rather raw science beakers - I find it confusing. On the other hand some positive changes included extending the duration of monasteries to globalization rather then scientific method.
As for long initial loading times, its of trivial importance compared to other more pressing issues. Although huge progress has been made in what I am about to mention, what REALLY matters is that effort continues to be focused on reducing the end turn times even further, as well as weeding out the remaining infinite loop bugs. I have encountered 2 infinite loops in my last 2 games that went past modern era but have not bothered to report them as I assume that these are known issues.
Grunthex
Prince
I've recently come back to Rom/AND after a few months of other games (sue me, I dabble!). The only thing really that bothers me now?
AI+Health. I find everything balanced, and generally tons of fun up until the mid-renaissance, even the late-renaissance. The AI is no human, but it's gotten better at building a decent army, building infrastructure in it's cities (!), but when we hit industrial, it dies.
The improved infrastructure is full of unhealthiness. And the AI doesn't know how to cope. When my cities are starting to take off (and really, it takes until renaissance to get past size 10-12, at least in an "average" city), the AIs stagnate. I looked around at some AI capitals in my last game, late industrial. When my cities are hitting 16-20, theirs are hitting 6-10. I saw the 2nd place civ behind me have *17* lost food per turn due to unhealth.
That's where it stops being a game, and starts being a trudge to the end (that I just can't do). Without opponents, it's just a city-builder game, and if I want that, there are games in that genre that do it better than the civ engine could ever dream.
My 2cents.
AI+Health. I find everything balanced, and generally tons of fun up until the mid-renaissance, even the late-renaissance. The AI is no human, but it's gotten better at building a decent army, building infrastructure in it's cities (!), but when we hit industrial, it dies.
The improved infrastructure is full of unhealthiness. And the AI doesn't know how to cope. When my cities are starting to take off (and really, it takes until renaissance to get past size 10-12, at least in an "average" city), the AIs stagnate. I looked around at some AI capitals in my last game, late industrial. When my cities are hitting 16-20, theirs are hitting 6-10. I saw the 2nd place civ behind me have *17* lost food per turn due to unhealth.
That's where it stops being a game, and starts being a trudge to the end (that I just can't do). Without opponents, it's just a city-builder game, and if I want that, there are games in that genre that do it better than the civ engine could ever dream.
My 2cents.
Sinapus
Defenestrated
For some, yes. In my current game I've actually gotten a profit when I expand Civ Jewellers, into a new city. So I end up putting those in as many cities as I can and it offsets the costs of other corps. I think I also nabbed Mapster in my current game and it makes my gpt increase when I expand it to another city.
So try to grab one of those that gives a good gold bonus (.5 might work, though 1+ per resource is better) to help offset the costs of corps that give other bonuses. (Universal Soldiers is VERY useful for military production cities.)
generalstaff
Steadfast
I did not want to admit it, but that is a "problem" I have been having: modding breaking saves. It seems like I get twenty hours worth of play out of a Snail/Eternity speed game, and then have to abandon it due to a new version of RoM/AND, another modder releasing something cool, or me having a project. I recently had to abandon my Cixi game due to working on LHs/Civs, however, it is worth it since my old LH Pack is missing Better AI weights and updating the Mega Civ Pack and making it better with Revolutions is more worthwhile than finishing that game; funny thing about that game is that the AIs without the Better AI weights had the higher scores, I think it had more to do with lucky starts.
Sinapus
Defenestrated
This is me, mightily fighting the urge to do things like that on the game I started early June of this year.
Edit: Like, oh, me realizing that I forgot to change the international port's per sea tile bonus from +1 commerce to +1 hammer. (Change it into a late-game Moai Statue, so to speak.)
gramcrkr103
Warlord
I dont think AND is too big and crowded, thats why most stuff is modular.
My problem is I get tired of the world maps Im playing on way too quickly
My problem is I get tired of the world maps Im playing on way too quickly
Hawk2112
Chieftain
Granted I'm new to this mod (been computerless for the last 3 years, and just got Civ onto the laptop I have), but what I have found in the 4 full games I've played has been the drudgery of having to compute what each building will do to my hammers/beakers/coins... the complexity of the economics are overwhelming for even a jaded player like myself (been playing since Civ 1 on my old 386DX33). I'm all for more stuff, more advanced AI, and that, but jeez, having to grab my calculator and try to compute fractional percentages and guess where that will go in 20/50/100 turns is more like work than play. I think, no offense to Killtech, that he has taken his concept to a place that non-hardcore gamers simply don't or maybe even can't go without giving up the fun factor. Better ROM, while it is probably better balanced, is not Better fun. I will be giving HAND a whirl after I hit send on this, hoping that will be better...
How to fix it? I'm not sure if I can give any answer that will help, as I am too new at this to give substantive answers. From my experience in the past as part of dev teams for Diablo II and Half Life 2 mods, it is VERY difficult to not mod to your own gaming style and miss the mark with the casual and/or beginner/intermediate players when modding solo. All of my attempts at modding by myself, well, I'll just say Epic Fail would be the highest accolade I ever would have gotten. So, my hat is definately off to Afforness, Killtech, Hydromancerx, and generalstaff for doing what I couldn't, modding whole mods or modmods solo. I sure hope no offense was taken to my words Best conceptual advice, sometimes the complex answer isn't always the best path. Finding simpler, easier for players to understand solutions would definately help the guys like me who are at a more intermediate level.
How to fix it? I'm not sure if I can give any answer that will help, as I am too new at this to give substantive answers. From my experience in the past as part of dev teams for Diablo II and Half Life 2 mods, it is VERY difficult to not mod to your own gaming style and miss the mark with the casual and/or beginner/intermediate players when modding solo. All of my attempts at modding by myself, well, I'll just say Epic Fail would be the highest accolade I ever would have gotten. So, my hat is definately off to Afforness, Killtech, Hydromancerx, and generalstaff for doing what I couldn't, modding whole mods or modmods solo. I sure hope no offense was taken to my words
Best conceptual advice, sometimes the complex answer isn't always the best path. Finding simpler, easier for players to understand solutions would definately help the guys like me who are at a more intermediate level.Psyringe
Scout
Odd. Imho these calculations aren't even necessary in AND (since the UI actually calcutes it beforehand and shows the values in the hover info), whereas they were necessary in the unmodded game (which doesn't have such info). While AND definitely has a more complex economy, it also gives you way better info than the unmodded game. Can you give an example of a situation where you feel compelled to use a calculator?
...
Why is it so much of a pain to keep the citizens happy and healthy so I can concentrate on build that mega army to go a conquering? Or build a cities culture up to a point that the AI's weaker city next door does a Culture flip to me?
I gave up a long time ago on a Cultural victory with AND. And I don't think I've had a city flip from culture in over a year of AND play. I can still do it with RoM2.92, so why can't I with AND?
...
JosEPh
As much as I love the mod, when the growth rate of cities seemed to be slowed and (even more) when city flipping through culture expansion was virtually eliminated, I got discouraged. If I could have just one wish for what might be the final version of AND, please, PLEASE allow a rival city to be more easily converted through culture like it used to be.
