Where did this Samurai fishing boat idea come from?

[DemonMaster]

Except no, because Japanese Fishing Boats now give +1 culture. You want them ASAP in the early game, not waiting for Samurai.

But when the Samurai army have taken some land, perhaps undeveloped, perhaps plundered, they can take a rest, relax and eat some fish.

 

[Pythakoreas]

hmmm, am I the only one here thinking about sushi? I know it isn't directly connected to Samurai directly, but it is one the things Japan is most famous for. sooo...... are we going to get a tea bonus for Samurai now?

(Samurai where quite big on tea drinking, and often their tea pot was one of their most prized possessions. I do believe you could use them as trophies to prove how many kills you had... after their heads!! )

Being a Buddhist culture encouraging to "think twice" before eating meat dishes, someone in Japan thought up of a brilliant idea to eat fish instead of animals. It's not that hard to come up with it since Japan is an island. A lot of African cuisine does not include fish because it's easier to run after animals on land.

 

[Atinuviel]

I think it's a fun idea that could enable Japan to go decently wide somewhere in the mid-game. On a map there always seem to be tiny islands with a single lux, surrounded by a decent amount of atolls and fishes and whatnot. It was always a pain having to get those random cities started due to having to build fishing boats and whatnot. Now you can simply send a Samurai with the settler to quickly work whatever Sea Resource tiles there are.

 

[kamex]

It's mainly a reference to Miyamoto Musashi and his duel against Sasaki Kojirou (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sasaki_Kojirō).

Also

I don't think a one off legend justifies a change to a 'regular' infantry unit. Thats like giving Hoplites divine abilities based on Greek mythology.

An even more elegant way would have been if workers could build fishing boats to begin with. Just embark, move to the fish and build a fishing boat, problem solved! Instead we get this one use nonsense which makes costal starts even worse. 50 hammers for 1 food/turn is a bad rate of return. It is only worth it on luxuries for happiness/trade unless you have god of the sea or Japans' bonus. Not to mention that they are really easy to plunder with the high movement of ships and the difficulty in creating bottlenecks at sea after astronomy.

Agreed.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=503275
A. Thanks!
B. I agree, and I'm hoping that enough community pressure causes them to redo Japan's UA, which is disproportionately uninteresting, especially considering the how historically unique Japan's culture has been.

Your welcome. I think your suggestion is the best buff for the Japanese UA I have seen.

Except no, because Japanese Fishing Boats now give +1 culture. You want them ASAP in the early game, not waiting for Samurai.

Exactly, so the new UA is already counter productive. They could just forget the Samurai thing all together and buff the work boats / atolls further by giving them +1 hammer or food also.

 

[isau]

Move Samurai from Steel to Compass. Keep the Iron requirement. No need to make them "replace" Longswords if there's a tech limitation on moving a unique unit from the same space on the tech tree as its base.

This would allow Japan to follow a much more logical tech path. They would need to grab Bronze Working and Iron Working at some point, but they'd get to Samurais somewhat faster and evade the issue that Longswords get obsoleted so fast. It would also put Samurai exactly one tech on the tree behind the tech that grants the water embark promotion.



EDIT: While we're at it, move Danish Berserkers from Steel to Metal Casting.

 

[ixias]

I think some people are confused about how to best utilize the Samurai's new ability. For your core cities, absolutely build/buy workboats ASAP for the added benefits. I have a game now as Japan where I went Tradition, got my core 4, built/bought workboats, then for my newer cities, used my Samurai to build the workboats. It allowed me to focus on other buildings in these new cities, which is very helpful.

This is also great for puppets since they will never produce a workboat, nor can you buy one there. It's not supposed to be the main way you hook up your resources though. The argument that you have to go out of your way for Samurai so you can make workboats it's just silly. Again, it's mostly for secondary cities.

 

[isau]

I think some people are confused about how to best utilize the Samurai's new ability. For your core cities, absolutely build/buy workboats ASAP for the added benefits. I have a game now as Japan where I went Tradition, got my core 4, built/bought workboats, then for my newer cities, used my Samurai to build the workboats. It allowed me to focus on other buildings in these new cities, which is very helpful.

This is also great for puppets since they will never produce a workboat, nor can you buy one there. It's not supposed to be the main way you hook up your resources though. The argument that you have to go out of your way for Samurai so you can make workboats it's just silly. Again, it's mostly for secondary cities.

That just doesn't sound very useful to me next to the buffs received by other unique units in the game given what you have to do to get it. Steel is an awkward, late Medieval tech on the opposite side of the tree from navy. I also just don't very often encounter that many new cities in need of fishing boats that can't be popped in the capital at 1 boat/2 turns that late in the game.

The only real advantage I can see is that cities a tile or two from the coast can still easily get sea resources.

 

[Slip de Garcon]

Japan is very much about fish and fishing.

Spoiler From Wiki :

Japan[edit source]
Tenkara fishing is a type of recreational fly-fishing that originated in Japan at least as long as 430 years ago, when anglers discovered they could dress their flies with pieces of fabric and use those to fool the fish. The art became more refined as the samurai, who were forbidden to practice martial arts and sword fighting in the Edo period, found this type of fishing to be a good substitute for their training: the rod being a substitute to the sword, and walking on the rocks of a small stream good leg and balance training. "Only the samurai were permitted to do it [fish]. So, the samurai who enjoyed ayu fishing would take sewing needles and bend them themselves, and make their own flies by hand.". Nowadays, these rods along with fishing flies, are considered to be a traditional local craft of the Kaga region. The Meboso family in Kanazawa has been making these flies for as long as 400 years themselves, and are currently a 20-generation fly-tiers.[citation needed]

Monty Burns' Dad:

"The Japanese? Those sandal-wearing goldfish tenders?"

 

[apotheoser]

Move Samurai from Steel to Compass.

Compass. Right.

How about we just make Fishing Boats really cheap for Japan?

 

[whyidie]

Apparently Samurai can't work offshore oil tiles. Not bad.

 

[Barathor]

Apparently Samurai can't work offshore oil tiles. Not bad.

Why would they anyway?

Samurai build fishing boats and Japan's bonus applies to resources which utilize fishing boats, along with atolls.

Oil is improved with offshore platforms when found in the water.

- - - - - -

I created a samurai mod if anybody is interested and they're not too keen on the building of fishing boats.

I just feel that, by the time you have samurai, the cost to build a fishing boat is very paltry anyway. Plus, given the boost they receive from Japan's unique ability, I think they're going to be a priority to improve early.

I really dig the later obsolete tech and upgrade to riflemen, though.

EDIT: Though, I can see it as somewhat useful if you're samurai are far from home and conquering cities AND the AI didn't improve its resources or you happened to pillage them. That, or if you're settling cities far from home, especially ones with lots of water or on islands with little production -- but you'd still have to travel the samurai there, which you could've just done with a workboat while keeping your samurai where you need them. :shrug:

 

[Ashbery76]

Its a bloody island.

 

[whyidie]

Why would they anyway?

Samurai build fishing boats and Japan's bonus applies to resources which utilize fishing boats, along with atolls.

Oil is improved with offshore platforms when found in the water.

- - - - - -

Now I see, work boats can make fishing boats or offshore platforms. Didn't realize there was a difference!

 

[Callonia]

Sushi is dangerous guys. Back in the heyday there was killer fishes swimming around so elite samurais was required to dispatch them for delicious sushi.

 

[civ54lyfe]

i thought there was an ancient Japanese tradition of Samurai's handcrafting oil production platforms...

 

[whyidie]

i thought there was an ancient Japanese tradition of Samurai's handcrafting oil production platforms...

I scoured wikipedia and came up with no connection!

 

[Browd]

Another urban myth wiki-dies.

 

[Xenocidius]

It does seem quite silly and strange. I'd much rather see the ability removed from Samurai and, seeing as everyone seems to hate the Zero, scrap the Zero and replace it with the unique unit:

Shokunin

Unique worker unit of the Japanese civilization. Builds improvements 25% faster than the Worker, which it replaces. Can embark onto coast tiles immediately. Can build fishing boats. Will not work if captured.

This reflects the Japanese work ethic which persists to this day, which emphasises loyalty and extremely hard work. As well as nicely fulfilling the intended role of the new Samurai, it lets Japan build fishing boats and gain the culture bonus immediately, even before Optics, which is especially useful considering the culture bonus is only really useful early-game.

 

[killmeplease]

samurai building boats.. how silly
how about panzers building breweries? (may be a wheat improvement)

 

[DemonMaster]

samurai building boats.. how silly
how about panzers building breweries? (may be a wheat improvement)

There is a connection between fishing and fishing villages and Samurai, I don't see the connection between panzers and breweries, but since I must have missed school that day, please enlighten me