Whether to build monuments.

[TruePurple]

Sampsa & Coanda both suggested they almost never build monuments. Are they alone? Any diety level players who build monuments?

Coanda suggests just building cities next to desired resources. So reasons to build monuments. This is assuming you can't just spread your religion in a city.

If you have a whale or fish tile, they are often not even touching shore. The only way to bring them in your domain to use those resources is to do your first cultural expansion. Monuments are the quickest way to do this.

You generally want shore touching cities so you can build various shore requiring buildings, but say a resource is further in. Or you'd have to not put your city on a fresh water tile to build next to it. Also just general city placement I like to plan my cities carefully, from not replacing woods for chop boost to shoreline touching to fresh water to trying to have as many special resources in its area as I can. If I regularly built cities next to specific resources to speed up access just to skip monument building, my city placement would be much less optimal.

It's cheaper to build a monument than spread your religion manually. Monuments only cost 30p, which isn't much.

Plus if you got cities on borders, every bit of culture helps.

So it seems like there are lots of reasons to build monuments even if you aren't going for a culture victory. Like so many circumstance it's worth building monuments for that Zues 3 monument built requirement should be a nonissue?

I'll also try to get three cities with good culture in case I do go for a culture victory. Like so many things happen in a game I generally don't aim for a type of win from the start. So of course those cities will have monuments.

 

[sampsa]

Monuments only cost 30p, which isn't much.

Much is relative. It's not nothing. It's 30 away from things that actually help your expansion (settler/worker/military unit).

If you have a whale or fish tile, they are often not even touching shore. The only way to bring them in your domain to use those resources is to do your first cultural expansion. Monuments are the quickest way to do this.

Ocean fish is a lot weaker than land -resource. Why? Because it takes so many to set it up even. Boat+monument is 60! You should start from the best spots, the ones that are cheapest to set up.

It's cheaper to build a monument than spread your religion manually.

I don't agree. 30 in a non-ripe city is IMO a lot more than 40 in a city that already has a granary. Religion is also a LOT more useful than only 1/pt.

Also, music or caste makes monuments moot, even without religion.

 

[TruePurple]

Also, music or caste makes monuments moot, even without religion.

You mean to set entertainer to grow the border? Of course that means polluting your GP points with entertainer and not being able to use slavery. How does music do it?

Ocean fish is a lot weaker than land -resource.

These aren't mutually exclusive. You can take advantage of both. Besides, with harbor fish is like 5 food 1 energy. Many times something like rice or wheat won't be more than 3 food for a good while. It takes resource to set up for sure but that's pretty high food plus 1 energy as well. Do you really not use claims and fish because you need initial production to set it up?

 

[AcaMetis]

How does music do it?

Music gives you the option to convert city into the same way that Alphabet/Currency allows you to convert into /.

 

[sampsa]

You mean to set entertainer to grow the border? Of course that means polluting your GP points with entertainer and not being able to use slavery. How does music do it?

Yes, artist. Yes, need to be in caste, that's what I meant with "caste". True, pollution is a small issue if you are planning to get a GP from that city. It's just so much cheaper than a monument. Music allows you to directly build culture. 10 is less than 30.

These aren't mutually exclusive. You can take advantage of both. Besides, with harbor fish is like 5 food 1 energy. Many times something like rice or wheat won't be more than 3 food for a good while. It takes resource to set up for sure but that's pretty high food plus 1 energy as well. Do you really not use claims and fish because you need initial production to set it up?

Of course they aren't mutually exclusive and that's not what I said. I said ocean fish is weaker and of less importance than stronger sites. By harbor you probably mean lighthouse, in which case by 5 you mean 6. By energy you mean commerce. Rice is 3 unimproved (wheat is always plains, hence it's 2) and if for you that is unimproved for a good while you are not improving as fast as you can.

 

[coanda]

Sampsa & Coanda both suggested they almost never build monuments.

I wouldn't say I almost never build monuments. In a typical (non-Creative) game, I'll build at least one. There's generally some awkward city somewhere.

But I would say that most of my cities do not get monuments.

 

[antimony]

Exactly it's not 0 but almost always less than 3 per game. And in most cases for seafood that is 2 tiles from land as you said.

Other thing is that if you don't need monuments you can delay the Mysticism tech and get the economic techs a bit faster. So most often I have libraries available before monuments.

 

[TruePurple]

Well I like playing Indians and they start out with mysticism.

I end up building a number of monuments, and never built just because.

So many aspects of the game some get lost in the shuffle, I forget about them. I will consider using entertainers and building culture more often.

Aside from expanding city workable tiles. Don't you build monuments in border cities pressing up against opponent culture?

Am I the only one that doesn't decide on a victory condition from the start and prepares for all of them like building extra culture in three cities?

 

[TruePurple]

Rice is 3 unimproved (wheat is always plains, hence it's 2) and if for you that is unimproved for a good while you are not improving as fast as you can.

I did not understand that

 

[antimony]

Well his point is that you should farm the rice or wheat as soon as you can, at which point it's about as good as improved fish. And a worker keeps improving tiles whereas a workboat is gone after 1 improvement. That's why fish in a way costs more to improve, especially if you need the monument too.

 

[TruePurple]

Well his point is that you should farm the rice or wheat as soon as you can, at which point it's about as good as improved fish.

Farm on rice or wheat is normally only 3 food. at start. Improved fish, you mean with worker boat? Boat boosted fish is real high, I don't think even latter farm boosting tech can compete. Of course you want to be using all of them anyway.

There some other early on advantages fish and claims have over say rice or wheat. Tech for working fish is about 2/3 the cost of agriculture/agri tech costs 50% more,, boats are cheaper and thus quicker to build than workers, and your city can grow while you are building a boat but not when you are building a worker. If at the beginning my cap has access to both land and water food special tiles, I'll get the water stuff setup first for sure.

 

[Fippy]

Well it's mostly general advice..try to avoid monuments if you can (charismatic makes them a much much better building so that's different).
But we all would prefer a plains hill city with 4 green river tiles that needs a monument, over a flat land city that has it's food tile first ring and needs no monument but gets only 1 river tile.
Keep in mind that a city with enuf or could also go for a library instead. What Sampsa says is settle those "easy" city spots first that need no monument (if they are available), and maybe you can deal with those that need 10 in other ways later.

 

[TruePurple]

Well the point is to place cities in the most optimal position without waiting a long time to work a very nice special tile. If you worry about resources starting out in your work area, that will mean a overall less optimal city placement.

Keep in mind that a city with enuf or could also go for a library instead.

First you got to get the writing tech to build libraries, but also libraries take a much longer time to build than a monument, you'll be waiting a much longer time to work that nice tile, which will be a loss of growth and such.

Did someone answer about whether they put monuments in border contesting cities? Like why wouldn't you do that?

 

[TruePurple]

Yes, artist. Yes, need to be in caste,

And thus you won't be able to use slavery, which is a pretty powerful tool in the game (unfortunately) And if you switch back and forth you will be dealing with rounds of chaos (I've been playing indians so much I forget most about that) which will be a big problem if you aren't Organized or whatever the trait is called.

 

[Alexander IV]

Well I like playing Indians and they start out with mysticism

Monty everywhere

 

[TruePurple]

Monty everywhere

What is "monty"?

 

[antimony]

Well the point is to place cities in the most optimal position without waiting a long time to work a very nice special tile. If you worry about resources starting out in your work area, that will mean a overall less optimal city placement.



First you got to get the writing tech to build libraries, but also libraries take a much longer time to build than a monument, you'll be waiting a much longer time to work that nice tile, which will be a loss of growth and such.

Did someone answer about whether they put monuments in border contesting cities? Like why wouldn't you do that?

Ok, so about getting libraries before monuments. A typical pace (standard speed) is to get 3 cities by turn 50, then maybe 1-2 more before we get Writing. On high difficulties especially, city maintenance hits quite hard, so we need to not have too many cities, and we need them close to the capital before we get the good economic techs (Pottery and Writing, the latter not only for libraries but it also unlocks Alpha, Math, etc.) At turn 50 the capital grows to a radius of 3 (grabs tiles 3 steps away from city), if there are resources in that 3rd ring of tiles around the capital, then we own them and can work them with a city 2 tiles away without a monument. By keeping a compact empire like that due to the maintenance mechanic, you need less monuments typically than if you settled new cities far from the existing ones. Now if fish 2 tiles from coast is your only food resource, then yes you might not wait for the library, but if you wanted a library anyway in that city and there is production and food to build the library in a reasonable time (i.e. with a combination of forests and slavery), then you're saving that 30 hammers and the border pops in 5 turns rather than 10.

--

Now about contesting culture with neighbors. This post is very important to understand how "plot culture" (which determines which civ owns a tile around a city) works: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/culture-mechanics-disassembled.225927/ .

"The city's CPT is also added to the plot culture of every plot within the city's cultural radius, regardless of ownership or presence or absence of other cities. However, there's an added factor based on the city's cultural radius. If the distance between the plot and the city is less than the cultural radius, then 20 times the difference is added to the plot culture as well. Note that the square that the city is on counts as being 1 space away and that this 20 value is not scaled with regards to game mode. It is always 20 per turn, period."

In other words, let's say you have a monument generating 1cpt (culture per turn), the city starts at 0 culture. You add 1cpt to the tiles just around your city, but then at 10 culture it grows to a radius of 2, and now the tiles in the first ring around your city get 21cpt, and the second ring (that just grew) gets 1cpt. At 100 culture it grows to radius 3, so now the first ring gets 41cpt, 2nd ring gets 21cpt and third ring gets just 1.

What that means is that, for example, if you have a neighbor that is creative or has some culture buildings, getting your city to 10 culture (radius 2) mostly protects the first ring of tiles around your city, if those tiles are in the outermost ring where the neighbor's city has influence, because you're getting the bonus 20cpt and they don't (unless they have lots of wonders or cultural buildings or are running the culture slider). In other words, it's very difficult for a neighbor to take a tile within your cultural borders if it's in a less "outer" ring for you than it is for them, and vice versa (for you to take such a tile from them). A monument (if you can't wait / don't need a library) is perfectly fine to protect your first ring of tiles since you get to 10 culture quickly, but it won't protect your 2nd from a neighbor getting 2cpt unless you reach 100 culture which takes a long time with just a monument. Again the main thing is when you need to reach the thresholds when your city grows its radius by 1, and how much culture per turn in your city you need to reach that.

 

[lymond]

What is "monty"?

Honestly not sure what he is trying to say, but Monty is short for Montezuma.

Yes, one may need an early monument to grab ocean seafood. You can complete one in 4 turns with a chop. Still 10 turns for pop. Just make sure that wb is ready to launch 2 turns before the pop either from the city or completed elsewhere.

 

[sampsa]

And thus you won't be able to use slavery, which is a pretty powerful tool in the game (unfortunately) And if you switch back and forth you will be dealing with rounds of chaos (I've been playing indians so much I forget most about that) which will be a big problem if you aren't Organized or whatever the trait is called.

Yes, with SPI (=spiritual) you should be altering between caste and slavery, making monuments moot.

 

[sampsa]

Farm on rice or wheat is normally only 3 food. at start. Improved fish, you mean with worker boat? Boat boosted fish is real high, I don't think even latter farm boosting tech can compete. Of course you want to be using all of them anyway.

No idea what you are talking about. Dry rice/wheat is 4, wet is 5.