Which Late Wonders are worth Building? (On Monarch)

[pigswill]

Elec and AL are the pre-reqs for industrialism.

 

[obsolete]

Back to the Damn issue, prime case just came up again.

Monte who was the largest civ on his continent, ended up beating me to the Gorges damn (I was second largest) That is HUGE, almost game breaking.

That snowballed him into just beating me again to the space elevator... which then snowballed him into just beating me into the space race victory. So yes, it was a game-breaker. I had that one wrapped up.


I knew I was in trouble when I lost the first wonder race, though tried to pull off a win. Failed...

 

[gettingfat]

The Dam is huge if you have 10+ cities,

It looks expensive. However, in late game usually if you have a GE, this is the place to burn it. Half of it is rushed. And if you have an industrious leader, it's also wise to build to leverage your trait advantage. The wonder essentially costs only about 1200 hammers with the industrious trait.

And if you have ironwork built in a river-city (e.g. using those work-shop/water mill boosted super production river cities). The wonder becomes like 800+ hammers only. People think +2 unhealthiness is nothing. To me unhealthiness is usually a bigger issue in late game compared to unhappiness.

 

[InvisibleStalke]

Sorry, but how did Monte building the Dam help him to get the Space Elevator? Maybe if you neglected to build coal plants because you expected to get the three gorges dam it would, but otherwise how? How would the three gorges dam make a city produce more hammers than it would with a coal plant?

Monte beat you to the Space Elevator for the same reason that he beat you to the dam - he had outteched and outproduced you. One didn't cause the other - they had the same root cause. In fact if you hadn't gone after the dam you probably could have gotten the space elevator first, which would be much more useful.

Even the space elevator isn't the be-all of the space race. Its a tech race - if its tight the Internet is more useful. If you have good production cities - and you should at that stage of the game - then the last spaceship part gets build 8 turns or so after the last tech you need. The space elevator might cut 2 turns off that (you did build laboratories in your production cities didn't you?). So its worth two turns maximum.

The key to the spaceship race is early computers and lots of laboratories. They help you produce parts and win the research race. Let Monte get the dam. Let him get the space elevator. Get computers for the win.

 

[InvisibleStalke]

The Dam is huge if you have 10+ cities,

It looks expensive. However, in late game usually if you have a GE, this is the place to burn it. Half of it is rushed. And if you have an industrious leader, it's also wise to build to leverage your trait advantage. The wonder essentially costs only about 1200 hammers with the industrious trait.

And if you have ironwork built in a river-city (e.g. using those work-shop/water mill boosted super production river cities). The wonder becomes like 800+ hammers only. People think +2 unhealthiness is nothing. To me unhealthiness is usually a bigger issue in late game compared to unhappiness.

I don't usually build factories or coal plants in my commerce cities - they don't need them and so the 3 gorges dam doesn't help them. Remember its a tech race - if it doesn't help you tech faster its not a priority for the space race. And diverting to the dam doesn't help you tech faster. It allows you to at most put one extra citizen to work in your production cities. Chances are that one extra citizen won't save you even a single turn off the last spaceship part.

My production cities can build health improvements so quickly it simply doesn't matter. They don't need to run lots of specialists or even be huge cities - a size 18 production city is perfectly fine. It can run a grocer, granary, hospital and recycling plant if needed. Genetics gives a great late game health burst too.

If you have a small empire, health is easily solved by running Environmentalism. If you have a large one, you usually have enough health resources that it solves itself. Neither is worth diverting from the space race to get +2 health by building a very expensive wonder.

 

[PieceOfMind]

Gee I'm surprised how few votes there are for the Kremlin. While I realise none of the wonders are essential, if I have the opportunity to build the Kremlin it is always a no-brainer. When using a CE, rush buying is a VERY powerful way to build units and buildings, and the Kremlin pays for itself very quickly. It is IMO the most important late game wonder.

The pentagon is also very useful to have if you like late game wars.

 

[obsolete]

In fact if you hadn't gone after the dam you probably could have gotten the space elevator first, which would be much more useful

HD comes before SE.

 

[InvisibleStalke]

HD comes before SE.

Isn't plastics one tech before robotics? At least how I usually traverse the tech tree. I'm usually teching at about one tech every 3-5 turns, but I don't think I could build the dam in that kind of time.

 

[cabert]

3GD?
useless
Pentagon?
useless

I selected the statue of liberty because if you do it well it gives you all you need (science, money, culture or hammers) where you need it.
I also selected the taj, because it sometimes comes at a time where I can build it "safely" (= I'm the only one with the tech, having marble = slow building, no chopping, no whipping, no GE, ne $rushing)
Also the space elevator if you go for space and the UN if you go for diplo, because they have a direct link to the victory.

 

[MrCynical]

The 3GD is practically useless for the simple reason that it appears so late. You should have had power plants in your main production centres 100 turns before it even becomes available. There's no real need to have power plants in every city for a space race win, as only a few of your best cities will actually build the components. In the game example you offered it's unlikely it made any difference. Monty would only need a single coal or hydro power plant to have as good a shot at the space elevator as he would with the 3GD, at a fraction of the cost and way earlier.

As to the other wonders, being able to rush buy cheaply is very powerful and the Kremlin is a fairly cheap wonder, so well worth having.

 

[obsolete]

Isn't plastics one tech before robotics? At least how I usually traverse the tech tree. I'm usually teching at about one tech every 3-5 turns, but I don't think I could build the dam in that kind of time.

It takes 3.5 turns for me to build the Damn. It would be foolish not to do this as it takes longer for the next tech to come in.

The Statue of Liberty naturally will have been built ages before this.

The UN is a paradox on Monarch because winning diplo with it is almost impossible to do as the AI has so many modifiers against the human. However, it does have certain EXPLOIT uses, which come in very handy for tech-skipping. You wont win the diplo part, but you can get voted secretary at least, which is all u need to set the wheels in motion.

 

[cabert]

It takes 3.5 turns for me to build the Damn. It would be foolish not to do this as it takes longer for the next tech to come in.

The Statue of Liberty naturally will have been built ages before this.

The UN is a paradox on Monarch because winning diplo with it is almost impossible to do as the AI has so many modifiers against the human. However, it does have certain EXPLOIT uses, which come in very handy for tech-skipping. You wont win the diplo part, but you can get voted secretary at least, which is all u need to set the wheels in motion.

allow me to rephrase that
YOU won't win diplo. Others do

 

[DarkSchneider]

It takes 3.5 turns for me to build the Damn. It would be foolish not to do this as it takes longer for the next tech to come in.

The Statue of Liberty naturally will have been built ages before this.

The UN is a paradox on Monarch because winning diplo with it is almost impossible to do as the AI has so many modifiers against the human. However, it does have certain EXPLOIT uses, which come in very handy for tech-skipping. You wont win the diplo part, but you can get voted secretary at least, which is all u need to set the wheels in motion.

Assuming the game progresses to that point, getting the UN is pretty much always the best way to get a victory. I always have over 50% of the world's population, but not always 65% of the landmass. Also, your vassals count 100% towards you votes, but only 50% towards your Domination score.

But back to the Dam issue:
I think this one goes back to the 'it depends' category. I have noted in my own games, that if an AI builds this you might as well give up, although that has a lot more to do with the fact that it means they either outteched or outproduced you to get it.

I think you would pretty much have to build this wonder if you were playing an Organized or Industrious Civilization. Industrious makes the Dam much more resonably priced, and with an Organized Civilization, even your non-production centers should have factories.

 

[obsolete]

Yes, industrious is a nice benefit here, and since I suspect the majority of players on Monarch under-rate the trait, they wont be using it, thus pricing themselves in more expensive.

That's a valid point, but surely one would be smart enough to keep some GE's around. Unless you're SURE you can capture the wonders instead.

The times I've won UN victory, I was going to win the Time victory, or domination regardless so I don't quite think giving it weight there is right. Now in the rare case where you just can't pull off the full domination in time to beat another AI's last space ship part, then it can be a nice though cheasy way of exploiting around this. But I can tell you that vassals DON'T always vote for you. I found this out the hard way. Though generally you can count on them.

 

[cabert]

Now in the rare case where you just can't pull off the full domination in time to beat another AI's last space ship part, then it can be a nice though cheasy way of exploiting around this. But I can tell you that vassals DON'T always vote for you. I found this out the hard way. Though generally you can count on them.

My vassals, even the most furious ones, always voted for me.
You should read SGotM3.
Vanilla and warlords teams went crazy with diplo, and the map wasn't suited for it (crowded, with painful guys)

 

[obsolete]

I believe, Togo was the last vassal who didn't vote for me. Now maybe it was a bug, or part of the leader 'friendly' modifiers at work. I also noticed vassal's voting for you for secretary doesn't ALWAYS correlate with their voting your UN diplo either. In most cases it does though.

 

[InvisibleStalke]

It takes 3.5 turns for me to build the Damn. It would be foolish not to do this as it takes longer for the next tech to come in.

The Statue of Liberty naturally will have been built ages before this.

The UN is a paradox on Monarch because winning diplo with it is almost impossible to do as the AI has so many modifiers against the human. However, it does have certain EXPLOIT uses, which come in very handy for tech-skipping. You wont win the diplo part, but you can get voted secretary at least, which is all u need to set the wheels in motion.

If you can really build the dam in 3.5 turns then you would probably be better off building it for 3 turns and then building something else, collecting the cash and upping your research rate. And if your research doesn't need any help then you have probably already won the game and are just going through the motions - the 3GD isn't going to make much difference.

Winning diplo on Monarch is very doable - I've done it several times, even with my population contributing only a small percentage. It is a fun strategy to play - especially with an isolated start.

What are the exploit uses of UN? There are some useful benefits in free trade that are worth pursuing if you are much larger than the opposition, but its not a required tech for any spaceship parts and any exploits you get have to pay back the 3-5 turns you took off your beeline to research mass media before you make a profit.

 

[obsolete]

You can do stuff like get emancipation without even knowing constitution. You can even switch to things like emancipation without going through anarchy.

 

[InvisibleStalke]

You can do stuff like get emancipation without even knowing constitution. You can even switch to things like emancipation without going through anarchy.

Its kinda late to be switching to Emancipation isn't it? Either you go for it earlier because you want lots of towns in the late game, or you never go for it at all and run caste system. I can't imagine playing a game where I teched up to Mass Media and didn't at least trade for democracy.

If you want Environmentalism then its a bit more realistic and it can save you a turn anarchy (I presume if you had an empire big enough to warrant several turns anarchy you would prefer state property anyway). But that turn of anarchy doesn't pay back the cost of diverting and building it.