Whither Islam

[Instant_Cereal]

I really like that idea. It allows religion to disappear without introducing the inquision element that a lot of people are turned off by.

I don't like the idea, it totally kills the idea of free religion and religious co-existence (Jerusalem, anyone?). I mean, sure, some religions could use some work in terms of timing (Islam, Taoism, etc.), but one thing they do help with is happiness. If you're isolated on a continent or all of your neighbors are hostile and refuse to trade, then a second religion can = 2+ happiness.

 

[azaris]

Islam, like all the other religions, is useful for diplomacy and espionage. If I don't start with Mysticism I usually skip the early religions and only get Christianity or Islam. Then when you have your own religion you can go to town.

Against AI civs without Theocracy you can quickly churn out a lot of missionaries and convert them. This could be useful for making a rift between two strong allied AIs, since they're slow to change to Free Religion. I hate it when all the AIs have the same religion, it leads to less wars and more tech hoarding. The religions are a good way of stirring things up.

 

[Matrix]

I don't like the idea, it totally kills the idea of free religion and religious co-existence (Jerusalem, anyone?).

Than build a Jewish, Christian and Islam temple...

 

[vsipinen]

So I think it should be possible that a religion disappears when there is another religion/are other religions present in a city. Doesn't matter whether that are older or newer religions. And - thinking out loud - the only way to keep a religion for sure could be by building a temple.

I think that there should anyway be some possibility to eliminate a religion even, if there is temple in the city. That could require for example a new type of unit (perhaps inquisitor), which might be able to also spread religions even under theocracy. The actions of such unit should probably be considered hostile - or even acts of war sometimes.

 

[silver 2039]

Confucsiom always dominates my games and I end up launching fanatical Confucist Jihads to purge the world of the Hindu, Buddhist, and Christain infidel.

 

[CGM3]

Archipelago settings can skew the distribition of religions, I've found. In the current e-mail game I'm playing with a friend on an all-island world, Buddhism, Judaism, Hunduism and Confucianism were all founded by computer-controlled civilizations with which neither of us had even indirect contact. Then I founded Taoism around 1000 AD, which know (c 1600 AD) has spread to four of my neighbors (all NPCs who hadn't been exposed to any other faith before then). The five of us have it as our state religion, and it has the highest rating of any faith at 21%, nearly twice its nearest competitor, Buddhism, which has 11% of the world. (Islam and Christianity have both been established as well.)

 

[kristopherb]

In reality, other religions disappeared where new religions appeared. People in Mecca were mostly Jewish and Christian when Mohammed founded the Islam there; basically everyone converted to Islam, so there was hardly any Judaism or Christianity left after a while.

So I think it should be possible that a religion disappears when there is another religion/are other religions present in a city. Doesn't matter whether that are older or newer religions. And - thinking out loud - the only way to keep a religion for sure could be by building a temple.

i love the idea now we need a tread/poll about it.

 

[DrewBledsoe]

i love the idea now we need a tread/poll about it.

We need to tread a Pole, isn't that more ethnic cleansing ?

 

[Peachrocks]

I've tried playing games on Noble where I oracle Divine Right just so I have a chance of getting Islam to spread before anyone else gets a real religion. Missing Oracle (which happens often) I either tried to Oracle earlier for theocracy or light bulbed Divine.

Divine Right should be a cheaper tech (Lightbulbable or with only a few more to go) and not so much a dead end. Though I think even if you did this, the requirements are too high, and when you get there, there will be at least four other religions in the world (Buddhism an AI would surely have it, Hinduism, Judaism, Christanity) and the fifth one could be present as well (Confucanism) before you even start, so even if most of them are yours they could have spread to your neighbours which makes your job a lot harder.

I personally think the Buddhist and Hindu dominance is a bit silly too.

 

[Alsark]

The Islam religion only causes problems for me. I used to play as a religion monger, where I would basically hog all of the religions. When I did this, it would basically force me to go down the dead-end path of Divine Right (thus either wasting a prophet, when I have Holy Buildings to me making, or wasting my time through research), unless I wanted to risk somebody else getting Islam first. It would then just spread and some stupid country would pick up Islam as their state religion when NOBODY wants Islam, not even the person who founded it (me).

Now that I am no longer a religion monger, but more of a technology monger, I just avoid Divine Right entirely. Even when it takes me only two turns, I'm like, "Eh, that's a good waste of two turns!" Instead, I just trade for it with some lowly civilization. The stupid AI who bothered to go for Divine Right first, however, then becomes a menance to the whole world. When an AI founds a religion, they tend to want to stick with that religion despite any logical factors... so you'll have one AI who is saying, "We hate you for following a heathen religion!" to everybody in the world, and that same AI will go around asking people (actually, just you), to convert to his or her religion (and thus giving you further penalties towards their relationship).

So no matter how I look at it, Islam has only ever caused problems for me. I guess if the other religions have already been taken and you absolutely MUST have a religion, then you could take a rush for it. Since people will be more hesitant to go for it since it's a dead-end technology, you'll be more likely to discover it first (if you're playing with players, at least).


:Edit: Oh... and... how do you Oracle Divine Right? The Oracle is like... a Bronze Age wonder... and Divine Right is in the Medieval era... so I'm not seeing how you could get that high into the technology list without somebody else having grabbed the Oracle first...

 

[Florian]

Well before Divine Right is discovered, some the other religions have taken hold and no civilization is particularly interested in re-spreading a religion when they're already reaping the benefits of a previous one...

So the only way to spread it significantly is by conquest. Just like actual history!

 

[gostanford22]

I don't think I've ever seen Islam adopted as a state religion.

I have many times, but normally it never even plays into the game at all, but i would know about Christianity because i make a bee-line for theology every game.

 

[mythmonster2]

:Edit: Oh... and... how do you Oracle Divine Right? The Oracle is like... a Bronze Age wonder... and Divine Right is in the Medieval era... so I'm not seeing how you could get that high into the technology list without somebody else having grabbed the Oracle first...

I have done that before. The AI were Monty, Isabella, and the usual Warmongerers so , as Gahndi(Industrious!) I grabbed the Oracle actually quite late. And there was one more time when I grabbed Future Tech! (The only enemy was Toku, stuck on a 5 tile tundra isle, ouch!)

 

[Kadasbrass]

Perhaps the later game religions should give more then one missionary when you research it (thou not when its auto founded with higher starting tech level).

Thou maybe religion founding should be random with you research a religion related tech instead of always founding a certain religion.

I have seen a few civs adopt Islam before, but its uncommon. Most often a civ that has someone's elses religion that works to spread their own religion instead of keeping a older religion someone else founded.

 

[Quintillus]

I've had a few games where Islam was important, although not anywhere near as many as Buddhism, Hinduism, or Judaism. When there are lots of players, I'll sometimes go for Islam if I don't have a holy city, but that usually results in everyone else disliking me because it's so difficult to convert them, so even when it is my dominant religion I sometimes leave Hinduism or another prominent one as my official religion.

I agree that allowing religions to be founded in cities with religion would be a good idea. Most games, Islam in particular is founded on very isolated cities.

 

[dragomaster]

In reality, other religions disappeared where new religions appeared. People in Mecca were mostly Jewish and Christian when Mohammed founded the Islam there; basically everyone converted to Islam, so there was hardly any Judaism or Christianity left after a while.

So I think it should be possible that a religion disappears when there is another religion/are other religions present in a city. Doesn't matter whether that are older or newer religions. And - thinking out loud - the only way to keep a religion for sure could be by building a temple.

Thats compleatly wrong, juws and chritians where in minority. thay had a polyteism religon with many god's. Mekka was a traiding tribe, many tribes from around arabia had god's and came to worship in mekka. After islam where established and the polyteism religon where destroyed the muslims alowed the christians and juws to stay. they wheren't foreced to convert they where alowed to keep there faith and many did keep it.

i.e. They have juws in Iran, espeshaly in Esfahan. They also have a minority in the nothern parts folowing zoroantasism. and look at syria, it is alot of christians there.

One thing is for shore, people have pride, espeshally when it comes to religon. many don't change, they stick to there religon no mather what.

 

[azaris]

I'll sometimes go for Islam if I don't have a holy city, but that usually results in everyone else disliking me because it's so difficult to convert them, so even when it is my dominant religion I sometimes leave Hinduism or another prominent one as my official religion.

You don't have to change your state religion to reap the benefits of a holy city. I like to call it the Cash-jid-al-Haram.

 

[bardolph]

I also like the idea of religions occasionally disappearing from cities. It would give newer religions a chance against older, more entrenched religions. I also like the idea that building a temple (or monastery) should prevent that religion from getting wiped out in a city. Remember, religious buildings get destroyed during a city's conquest, so it would still be possible to spread faith "by the sword" and wipe out opposing religions.

The only flaw I see in this system is that older, more entrenched religions might have an even easier time of keeping the newer religions down, if they actively oppose the spread of those new religions.