Who else is sick of AI's unreasonable trade requests?
- Thread starter siredgar
- Start date
brody
Pathetic Loser
I don't see that as stupid at all. If the Babylonians are already cautious of you, they won't make a good trade to begin with. Add in that they may have great relations with the Egyptians, and you don't stand a chance. I've offered everything under the sun, but if two civs really like each other you simply can't break them up. Wait until you're more liked by the babylonians (give them some free gold or something) because otherwise you'll have a tough time with that deal even if they don't like the Egyptians.
Kefka
Your local Schizophrenic
I have gotten things that I have demanded before
once I came to rome and clicked on their world map and forgot to offer my world map and hit the button too quickly :crazyeyes whoops I didn't mean to demand their world map I was just trying to trade world maps.
but he gave in to my demands anyway
personally with the way the AI trades with us I wonder how they ever trade with eachother if they always want a 30% mark up as one person said
I mean think of it this way rome comes to greece and asks them if
I will give you my world map and you will give me100 gold and your world map
and then greece's counter offer would be...
NO I will give YOU my world map and you will give ME 130 gold and your world map
No 100 by YOU
No 130 by YOU!
ITS FOR YOUR BENIFIT 100 GOLD
NO I NEED TO RIP YOU OFF 130 GOLD FROM YOU!
THATS IT WE GO TO WAR!
Wow I think I just solved the reason why the AI to goes to war with eachother.
Kefka
Your local Schizophrenic
I just have one question? what are u doing up in china?
I think it would only be stupid if THEY needed an alliance against them and they Iniciated the alliance talk
After seeing how Russia behaved last night, I think I know how you might try demanding something. I mistakenly left a nice juicy city undefended early on, and it just so happened that a Russian warrior had ambled upon it. When he got within one square of it, Russia made a demand for a territory map and like 25 gold. I refused and the warrior took my city. So I think the way to do it is to get an intimidating force within striking distance of something (and close enough for the other civ to see) then make your demand. Speak softly and carry a big stick! hehe "How about a little gift for Mother Russia, eh?"
siredgar
Warlord
Originally posted by eyrei
Sometimes, you can remove some of the things they are asking for and they will still agree. The AI was actually programmed to try to trick you. Often, the AI will offer its world map for my world map and a tech. If I remove the tech, they are still willing to trade.
Yes, I know that.
But I think you all have missed my point. That is the AI constantly hits me up for my world map and hundreds of gold for a world map that I just got from another civ a few turns ago.
Here's what happens:
Japan says, "I'll give you my world map for your world map AND 750 gold."
I say, "Okay, let's trade maps, but I won't give you any gold." The map reveals little or nothing I don't already know.
Then, Germany knocks on my door and says, "I'll give you my world map for your world map AND 650 gold AND gunpowder."
I say, "Okay, let's trade maps, but I won't give you any gold or gunpowder." The map doesn't show me ANYTHING more than I already know.
Well, then, India hits me up saying, "I'll give you my world map for your world map AND 880 gold AND gunpowder AND wine."
I say, "Hell, no, get out of here!"
And it goes on.
Listen, I don't want your useless world maps and stop bothering me. And no, I'm not "weak" in the game. I'm in the middle of the game and I'm the second or third most powerful (depending on if you're looking at power or culture). All of these civs are much weaker than my civ and in fact, it's always the weakest civs that are asking for these nonsensical trades. The stronger civs don't seem to do this.
Kefka
Your local Schizophrenic
I think its stupid how they want me to pay them 300 dollors to trade maps and I ALREADY KNOW ALL THE MAP!
you would think that if I knew all the map AND I MEAN ALL OF IT! that they would be paying me the 300 dollers to see what they don't know but Instead they think that I should pay 300 dollers to see nothing new and give them a perfect map that shows all the world.
you would think that if I knew all the map AND I MEAN ALL OF IT! that they would be paying me the 300 dollers to see what they don't know but Instead they think that I should pay 300 dollers to see nothing new and give them a perfect map that shows all the world.
Zouave
Crusader
- Joined
- Dec 21, 2001
- Messages
- 1,603
I offered the Babylonians two MAJOR tech advances, and 50 gold - which is 48 more than in their entire treasury.
Looking at the map (which I also offered them) I, as the Babs, would think it a fabulous time to take out Egypt which is limiting my expansion by allying with the Americans. Getting the gold and techs would be a great bonus.
If you are almost broke the AI will usually trade worldmap for map or map for map and tech.
Come the industrial age I cant get a world map without stealing one. I usually have oodles of cash, 15K+ by that point and it only gets worse. The more money you have the more they will ask for.
If you have 150 gold and they ask for 15 thats fairly resonable. If you have 15K and the ai asks for 500 thats not very. But the percentages are very different and percentage wise to the computer the 500 is a better deal. Im guessing the AI thinks like that not applying a quantity to equation.
Hmm, Time to go back to college and take Psychology 431 Ai Behavioral analysis
Come the industrial age I cant get a world map without stealing one. I usually have oodles of cash, 15K+ by that point and it only gets worse. The more money you have the more they will ask for.
If you have 150 gold and they ask for 15 thats fairly resonable. If you have 15K and the ai asks for 500 thats not very. But the percentages are very different and percentage wise to the computer the 500 is a better deal. Im guessing the AI thinks like that not applying a quantity to equation.
Hmm, Time to go back to college and take Psychology 431 Ai Behavioral analysis
Carbon_Copy
Elemental
For the lux-for-lux deals not working a while back in this thread, here's why you often can't do a straight deal. The AI knows how many different kinds of luxuries you have (whether they *should* know exactly how many luxuries you have is a different story, but of all the things that the AI cheats on, this one is minor in the grand scheme of things compared to being able to see the resources on the map before they appear). The marginal benefit of each additional luxury increases with more luxuries, which is kind of opposite to how things typically work in real life: If I'm surrounded by piles of jewels and spice, how much happier would I be if I got my hands on some ivory? Would the difference in my happiness be greater than, say, the difference in my happiness between when I had nothing and when I had one of the luxuries? The answer, of course, is no.
And human players tend to, over time, grab and hold onto more luxury sites than the AI. So if you're Egypt with five native luxuries and you want to trade luxuries with France, which has two native luxuries, Joan knows that sixth luxury will help you a lot more than a third luxury does for her, so she'll try to extort you on it.
And with regards to the "map for map + tech" trades, I think this is a result of the devalutaion of tech once it's been researched. Once you move into the "icebreaker" position, the laggers in the tech race are researching techs that cost piddly amounts of gold compared to what they cost you to study, and by their calculations on the market value for that tech, asking you to toss something three links down the chain from where you are isn't too unreasonable. Never mind that there is a greater benefit to the tech leader to have all the civs as far behind him as he can (especially in the early industrial, where keeping the AI ignorant can grant you dozens of turns where you're the only civ with railroads or able to see for real the resources on the map).
The AI also places a disproportionate amount of value over being able to see the updated infrastructure of the various civs relative to most players. You may or may not have noticed that you don't see the most up-to-date infrastructure net of an AI civ unless you see the territory for yourself or you see their map (and this is why the AI will almost always ask to see your territory map sometime before going to war with you). Most humans probably don't notice or don't care about what improvements they can see or can't see on the AI's territory map, it's all just so much dust under their tank treads in the end. Maybe it will be more important if/when Multiplayer arrives, but right now all it does is make the AI seem too big for its britches.
And human players tend to, over time, grab and hold onto more luxury sites than the AI. So if you're Egypt with five native luxuries and you want to trade luxuries with France, which has two native luxuries, Joan knows that sixth luxury will help you a lot more than a third luxury does for her, so she'll try to extort you on it.
And with regards to the "map for map + tech" trades, I think this is a result of the devalutaion of tech once it's been researched. Once you move into the "icebreaker" position, the laggers in the tech race are researching techs that cost piddly amounts of gold compared to what they cost you to study, and by their calculations on the market value for that tech, asking you to toss something three links down the chain from where you are isn't too unreasonable. Never mind that there is a greater benefit to the tech leader to have all the civs as far behind him as he can (especially in the early industrial, where keeping the AI ignorant can grant you dozens of turns where you're the only civ with railroads or able to see for real the resources on the map).
The AI also places a disproportionate amount of value over being able to see the updated infrastructure of the various civs relative to most players. You may or may not have noticed that you don't see the most up-to-date infrastructure net of an AI civ unless you see the territory for yourself or you see their map (and this is why the AI will almost always ask to see your territory map sometime before going to war with you). Most humans probably don't notice or don't care about what improvements they can see or can't see on the AI's territory map, it's all just so much dust under their tank treads in the end. Maybe it will be more important if/when Multiplayer arrives, but right now all it does is make the AI seem too big for its britches.
Hurricane
Sleeping Dragon
- Joined
- Dec 6, 2001
- Messages
- 1,197
Good post, Carbon_Copy. I was about to post the same thing about the maps. Even though a new map trade doesn´t reveal any new land, it will give updates on the existing tiles. The AI seems to value this much more than a human player.
I also get the feeling that the AI now values tech very low. I will almost always have to give 2 or 3 techs for one in return. This might of course be due to the fact that I am playing on deity. Since they very well could research 3 techs in the time I discover 1, they might feel this is a fair trade (considering Beamup´s nice explanation of AI logic).
On the other hand, the AI will pay very much for resources and luxuries. I traded Iron to the Romans for 2 techs, world map, all their gold (about 80) and 4 gold per turn. This has made me able to keep up with the AI.
I also get the feeling that the AI now values tech very low. I will almost always have to give 2 or 3 techs for one in return. This might of course be due to the fact that I am playing on deity. Since they very well could research 3 techs in the time I discover 1, they might feel this is a fair trade (considering Beamup´s nice explanation of AI logic).
On the other hand, the AI will pay very much for resources and luxuries. I traded Iron to the Romans for 2 techs, world map, all their gold (about 80) and 4 gold per turn. This has made me able to keep up with the AI.
Lt. 'Killer' M.
Deity
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2001
- Messages
- 7,475
I don`t trade. I just demand stuff for peace - and often go on warmongering when they aren`t ready to part with what I want.
That`s why I want the No-Government bug back - what do I care if I can`t trade?????
That`s why I want the No-Government bug back - what do I care if I can`t trade?????
Zachriel
Kaiser
That works if you are the preeminent power. But if you have a difficult position, then diplomacy might be required in order to survive.
My favourite moment of the game was when I tried to trade my whole empire for one city...
I was sooo suprised when they rejected the treaty. I kept my empire and they kept their one rubbish city. Btw I mean I tried to give them absolutely everything I had.
I was sooo suprised when they rejected the treaty. I kept my empire and they kept their one rubbish city. Btw I mean I tried to give them absolutely everything I had.ChrisWade
Beer Monster
The one strange thing that I come across, is that the AI tries to exchange territory map for territory map + tech. I take the tech off and try to exchange just maps. The AI refuses. Then I change the trade to world map + tech for my world map and they accept. This would seem reasonable if my map was worth having, but early on, (until i've traded maps with a few civs) it shows very little. This way I gain a tech and a far better world map. How come the AI thinks a territory map is better than a world map, when both will show the territory maps.
The AI seems to be pretty tough when trading. I seems to me that you get lower prices the more friendly they are.
- start with lux trading before trading tech, maybe throw in a few extra gold
- when buying tech, try first with lux/gold then your own tech
- bargain for civ contact when ever possible
- contact every civ and shop around
- try to be on good term with a least one civ, they tend to trade among themselves, with a friendly civ you get an extra chance for trading
- when paying gold, I prefer paying per round if I want to be sure they are friendly
-
- start with lux trading before trading tech, maybe throw in a few extra gold
- when buying tech, try first with lux/gold then your own tech
- bargain for civ contact when ever possible
- contact every civ and shop around
- try to be on good term with a least one civ, they tend to trade among themselves, with a friendly civ you get an extra chance for trading
- when paying gold, I prefer paying per round if I want to be sure they are friendly
-
Daaraa
King
On the flip side of this...
It's 1650 in my game (huge map, 8 civs) and I have yet to trade my maps with anyone.
Just to see what would happen, I offered my World map and asked what the Russians would give me.
World Map
65 gold per turn
300 Gold lump sum
Democracy
Free Artisty
The Germans, Zulu's and Babylonians all offered Similar deals.
I'm holding out for a while yet as I don't need the money or the techs. (113 gold per turn and discoveries every 4 turns. Along with WLTK days everywhere.)
How's that for an outlandish trade?
P.S. - Regent Difficulty (I'm trying out the Indians for the first time, usually the weakest in my other games)
It's 1650 in my game (huge map, 8 civs) and I have yet to trade my maps with anyone.
Just to see what would happen, I offered my World map and asked what the Russians would give me.
World Map
65 gold per turn
300 Gold lump sum
Democracy
Free Artisty
The Germans, Zulu's and Babylonians all offered Similar deals.
I'm holding out for a while yet as I don't need the money or the techs. (113 gold per turn and discoveries every 4 turns. Along with WLTK days everywhere.)
How's that for an outlandish trade?
P.S. - Regent Difficulty (I'm trying out the Indians for the first time, usually the weakest in my other games)
Something that REALLY bothers me is that when the AI seek contact with me, and they come with a reasonably fair deal, like:
We want gunpowder and give you 46 gold/turn + worldmap.
Then i used to think, well, maybe i can get 50 gold/turn. So i say 'will you accept my counterproposal'.
I try selling it for 50 gold/turn but they turn me down.
So, i get back TO THEIR OWN PROPOSAL!!!! that is 46 gold/turn + worldmap for gunpowder and my adviser states *correct of course* 'They will néver accept such a deal'
So i try selling gunpowder for nothing more then 10 gold/turn and the STUPID AI STILL SAYS NO!!!
Why don´t they accept the same thing they offerd me in the first place!!!
:crazyeyes
We want gunpowder and give you 46 gold/turn + worldmap.
Then i used to think, well, maybe i can get 50 gold/turn. So i say 'will you accept my counterproposal'.
I try selling it for 50 gold/turn but they turn me down.
So, i get back TO THEIR OWN PROPOSAL!!!! that is 46 gold/turn + worldmap for gunpowder and my adviser states *correct of course* 'They will néver accept such a deal'
So i try selling gunpowder for nothing more then 10 gold/turn and the STUPID AI STILL SAYS NO!!!
Why don´t they accept the same thing they offerd me in the first place!!!
:crazyeyes
MikeV
Chieftain
Originally posted by WUM
So, i get back TO THEIR OWN PROPOSAL!!!! that is 46 gold/turn + worldmap for gunpowder and my adviser states *correct of course* 'They will néver accept such a deal'
So i try selling gunpowder for nothing more then 10 gold/turn and the STUPID AI STILL SAYS NO!!!
Why don´t they accept the same thing they offerd me in the first place!!!
:crazyeyes
I've seen the same thing. It's a bug.
Fortunately, it offers much more the 1st time than any thing else you try.
The work-around it to clear the table, make your original offer, then ask again the AI what it'll trade, and accept.
Similar threads
