Who else is sick of AI's unreasonable trade requests?

[Bilas]

yes i also had some strange dealings with the AI. i.e., during s recent game me and the French were friendly neighbors. We had trade going and the like. Well along comes the Germans with there full force of calvary and started war with the French. Turns go by and the French are losing. So I contact the French, and they are polite to me and I offer them a military alliance against Germany I ask for nothing but that. My advisor replies " They will be insulted by that"??? So I offer it to France as an act of friendship and they basically tell me to shove off! so I refuse to give them anything else, and Germany continues taking land from them! I think this is a little odd the french would rather die than have me join them against germany, but they would probably do it if I offered Gunpowder, 700GOLD, and world map???

 

[Ironikinit]

OK, the demanding French thing.

Don't forget that a military alliance lasts 20 turns. If broken, there is a reputation hit. It doesn't seem like the AI really gets very hurt by it, but it could be a consideration. Maybe the AI in this case didn't expect the war to last that long. It might also prefer that you stay out of the war, or maybe it just really wanted gunpowder.

Then again, it could be random for all I know. Usually it doesn't mind alliances if it's already at war, just don't count on it holding up its end of the bargain.

 

[lawren8]

Originally posted by Marzipan
Here's an example of an AI leader being too unreasonable, I think. In this game I'm playing now, Bismark has FIVE extra wines. You would think with 5 extras that a luxury for luxury swap would be fine. You would think he would practically give at least one wine away, but no deal. I have good relations with Bismark too. humm.

Problem is that he's cornered the wine market -- you can only get wine from him and he knows it. Also, I bet that you already
have 4-5 luxuries around while he only has 1-2 and he knows that you will get alot more happy faces from the wine than he would get from the luxury. Also, I've heard that the AI considers
size of the empire and that with your larger empire you will get much more benefit from a luxury than his small empire.

Annoying? yes
Unreasonable? slightly (but then the AI is trying to win)
Smart? yes

It always bugs the heck out of me when I'm trying to get the
7th aned 8th resources so I can go WLTKD my cities and go into
tech overdrive to win the game and the AI wants some ungodly amount.

BTW has anyone noticed a tendency for the "friendly" AIs to stop luxury trading or at a minimum renegotiate a higher price when you go to war. Its so annoying that but it usually turns me into a war monger with them next on the list

 

[MikeV]

Originally posted by siredgar

But I think you all have missed my point. That is the AI constantly hits me up for my world map and hundreds of gold for a world map that I just got from another civ a few turns ago.

Here's what happens:

Japan says, "I'll give you my world map for your world map AND 750 gold."

I say, "Okay, let's trade maps, but I won't give you any gold." The map reveals little or nothing I don't already know.

Then, Germany knocks on my door and says, "I'll give you my world map for your world map AND 650 gold AND gunpowder."

I say, "Okay, let's trade maps, but I won't give you any gold or gunpowder." The map doesn't show me ANYTHING more than I already know.
...
All of these civs are much weaker than my civ and in fact, it's always the weakest civs that are asking for these nonsensical trades. The stronger civs don't seem to do this.

There are two different things going on here.

First, the AI civs want the World Maps so that they can see more of what's going on. So, it's not about whether their maps reveal more to you. :nya2:

Also, each time you exchange a World Map, your World Maps are now added together. This makes them even more valuable to the other AI civs.

The second thing that is going on is that the AI will initially ask for more than it is actually willing to settle for. Good of you to bargain them down to something less (in my 1st few games, I didn't even notice the Foreign Advisor and what he was saying). :enlighten

I think the Diplomacy AI is one of the better-working features of the game.

 

[Beamup]

Originally posted by Dell19
My favourite moment of the game was when I tried to trade my whole empire for one city... I was sooo suprised when they rejected the treaty. I kept my empire and they kept their one rubbish city. Btw I mean I tried to give them absolutely everything I had.

Happened to me once too - I offered my entire empire, 50k gold, 5000 gold/turn, several luxuries, and several techs for one piddling little 1-point German city. It was sitting on Uranium, and I needed to build the SS Fuel Cells to win. They didn't have Fission yet (actually they were just hitting the Industrial age - this was on Warlord) so I figured they'd be OK with this. They refused and I promptly went to war, took the Uranium, then smashed 2/3 of their empire (and 3 other civs who allied with them) with Modern Armor before they made peace - then finished the SS.

Knowing what I do now, it was smart of the AI to turn this down. If they knew there was Uranium there (which I am not entirely convinced of) then they could have been thinking (personifying the AI here) "If I let them have Uranium, they'll win. If I want to have a chance, I can't let them have that city no matter what." Fairly bright of the AI, actually.

 

[Zouave]

Originally posted by MikeV


There are two different things going on here.

First, the AI civs want the World Maps so that they can see more of what's going on. So, it's not about whether their maps reveal more to you. :nya2:

Also, each time you exchange a World Map, your World Maps are now added together. This makes them even more valuable to the other AI civs.

The second thing that is going on is that the AI will initially ask for more than it is actually willing to settle for. Good of you to bargain them down to something less (in my 1st few games, I didn't even notice the Foreign Advisor and what he was saying). :enlighten

I think the Diplomacy AI is one of the better-working features of the game.

I couldn't disagree more.

I have found that "bargaining" with the AI is a waste of effort. Often it will not change from its original offer; when it does the difference is so small it was hardly worth the effort. Example:
if the offer is a tech plus "200", I might get it down to 195, 190 with luck and with good relations. Big deal.

The AI Diplomatic Advisor is suicidally stubborn during war and won't make a reasonable peace until forever crushed. Any human would try to cut a deal as fast as possible before losing any more cities and being unable to attack in the future. Not the AI.

 

[MindRunner]

Originally posted by Allemand
I get the impression that if I have a lot more trade resources than the AI, it thinks I should give more. Sort of like when I have 12 luxeries and the AI has 4, the ratio of giving is 3 of mine for 1 of his.

I guess you might be right, because I was also very advanced technologically and military and other civs still would want me to give them 3 resources of mine for just 1 of them.

I began to think that some resources would be more valuable than others, until I realized that it would be the same, whatever there was on the table.

In fact, I had always about 6-8 Luxury resources, compared to their 2-4.

 

[MikeV]

Originally posted by Zouave

I have found that "bargaining" with the AI is a waste of effort. Often it will not change from its original offer; when it does the difference is so small it was hardly worth the effort. Example:
if the offer is a tech plus "200", I might get it down to 195, 190 with luck and with good relations. Big deal.

Hmm, I've not had that experience. I've sometimes re-negotiated from an original offer of 100 lump sum to 10 per turn and 15 lump sum.

I think it may be the result of different play styles. If you fight wars frequently, the AI seems to demand more and is less flexible.

By the way, the AI isn't too clever about "Net Present Value" analysis. Over 20 turns, 1 gold/turn is worth about 20 lump sum. I've seen the AI refuse to pay 40 lump sum, yet agree to 3 gold/turn and another 10 lump sum. (Worth 70, npv) :suicide:

 

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by MikeV
By the way, the AI isn't too clever about "Net Present Value" analysis. Over 20 turns, 1 gold/turn is worth about 20 lump sum. I've seen the AI refuse to pay 40 lump sum, yet agree to 3 gold/turn and another 10 lump sum. (Worth 70, npv) :suicide:

Assuming each turn is 10 years, then the term of the contract is 200 years. Compounding yearly, the rate of return is about 0.2% per annum.

You know, with the political uncertainty in the world and a possible war looming in the near future, I think I'd hold onto the cash too.

 

[Zouave]

I offered the Egyptians once (they were Polite) Ivory for Literature. Yes, they had an extra ivory; even if they didn't it's a great deal! No dice!! Yes, that weird AI again.

 

[Zouave]

This is an all-time favorite Crazy AI screen image.

Check it out.

Early in the game the Chinese capital, Beijing, is building a courthouse - even though it is a capital with absolutely NO corruption. :crazyeyes

Still think the AI knows what it is doing??

 

[Willem]

Also, keep in mind that Soren has programmed some of the civs to be harder to bargain with than others. Some like to trade, some don't. I know Cleo drives a hard bargain, and Bismark gets rather tight fisted as well.

 

[Zouave]

I know. But it would seem logical to accept a deal for an extra ivory in exchange for literature. The Egyptians are only hurting themselves.

 

[brody]

Originally posted by Zouave


I offered the Babylonians two MAJOR tech advances, and 50 gold - which is 48 more than in their entire treasury.

Looking at the map (which I also offered them) I, as the Babs, would think it a fabulous time to take out Egypt which is limiting my expansion by allying with the Americans. Getting the gold and techs would be a great bonus.

Again, if they like Egypt and they don't like you, they aren't gonna take it. It's not a matter of reaching some limit somewhere in the game's code, I have seen times when a very weak enemy won't trade a simple embargo for 200+ gold/turn AND major tech advances. If they like the person you want them to piss off, it ain't gonna happen.

 

[tmai]

I often bump into this: I get a deal from the AI, but when I want to _add_ something to the deal the advisor says that they will never accept such a deal. He must be empathic because indeed they never do. It can be anything too: money per turn, a city, worldmap, your empire. As a matter of fact, the advisor says that they will never accept the deal the AI offered in the first place, and again... he's right.

And like Beamup, out of boredom I often tried to trade my empire for one city and the deal is always refused.

Also, this may have changed after the patches, because I haven't tried this lately, but a nice exploitive deal used to be to trade some of your valuable cities for something you want badly (tech maybe). If the deal is accepted the cities will change sides but become undefended, and you can simply walk in again with a single unit. You will loose the cultural improvements of the cities but that's not much of an issue with industrial age production levels.

 

[Astral]

I have played a few games now (4 or so) and every single time, when I want a luxury, I have to pay way more than I think is reasonable. I've been playing on the easier levels (mostly warlord and the third lowest) so i'm always ahead in tech, culture and equal to the strongest in military strength. And even though I wanna trade a luxury resource that only I have - for one only they have - they demand extra tech, lots of gold and my map. Techs are often traded fair when I want to buy them, but when I sell them i get nothing in return - i've seen a post about being a tech broker, but it isn't possible for me, because noone wanna give anything for techs.

And the AI do "cheat" when the trade amongst themselves. They almost always trade techs, and often I get excluded. It seems that the only trade offered to me, is world map trading...never techs, lux or strategic resources...and I think thats too bad.

And another thing. In almost all of my games, the AI seems to earn NO money at all, so I can't trade with them. Often I hear that you trade techs for 40 gold/turn or something, but in my games the civs doesn't even earn half of that (exept me - and I always play peaceful, so I leave them to them selves to grow).

And again one last thing: How the h*ll do you get the civs to like you? I think it's too bad that almost all civs starts with "causious" atitude, even if I am peaceful, and haven't harmed anyone. ofcause I could just kill them, but if I want a peaceful game, it's not fun without trading and good relationships. Why does everyone hate you, just becuase you are the #1 civ?

Well, all in all, civ is a good game, but some things I would personally change.

 

[Beamup]

Originally posted by MikeV
By the way, the AI isn't too clever about "Net Present Value" analysis. Over 20 turns, 1 gold/turn is worth about 20 lump sum. I've seen the AI refuse to pay 40 lump sum, yet agree to 3 gold/turn and another 10 lump sum. (Worth 70, npv) :suicide:

I actually have the opposite happen all the time. The AI will, say, agree to 100 lump sum, but won't pay 1/turn. In fact, in my games, they will NEVER do much gpt at all. Kind of annoying when I try to be a tech broker but nobody has any gold, so the best deals I can get will be like gunpowder for 4 lump sum and 2 gpt. My record gpt I've ever been able to get was 7... and that was the French, who were gracious, for 4 luxuries and 3 good techs - Industrialization, Sanitation, and Military Tradition, IIRC. (I didn't actually accept this deal, of course)

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

Originally posted by Zachriel


That works if you are the preeminent power. But if you have a difficult position, then diplomacy might be required in order to survive.

yeah, you`re more than right! But it still feels good

 

[rdomarat]

Originally posted by MikeV
By the way, the AI isn't too clever about "Net Present Value" analysis. Over 20 turns, 1 gold/turn is worth about 20 lump sum. I've seen the AI refuse to pay 40 lump sum, yet agree to 3 gold/turn and another 10 lump sum. (Worth 70, npv) :suicide:

That is crazy! I've run into the exact same thing myself. I was at the car dealership yesterday, and wanted to buy a $20,000 car. The salesman suggested that instead of me giving them $20,000 right now, that I could give $5,000 right now, and then give him $345 a month for 4 years. I asked to borrow his calculator and found out that I would end up paying almost $21,500 for the car with this new "deal"! I told him to stick it where the sun don't shine and walked out.

My "mortgage broker" offered me similar "deals". This is a strange world we live in my friend. If you don't watch your ever move, you're going to get ripped off.

 

[rdomarat]

I don't know if it's too late in the thread to try and make an intelligent response to the original question, but one of the things I do all the time to keep the AI happy with me (which tends to mean they offer more balanced deals) is to never leave the bargaining table without giving the AI something.

Later in the game, the AI often comes in with a offer of his territory map for my territory map and 300 gold, and odds are they are "Annoyed" with me. We're done exapnding and all the land is already taken, so the value of maps is greatly reduced. I don't really want his map, but he wants mine, so I give it to them as a gift. They walk away from the table happy. Sometimes I'll even float them 5 gold just for the fun of it, or toss an obselete tech their way if I'm in the lead.

I've found that a Civ is much more likely to offer reasonable deals if relations are good.