Who else is sick of AI's unreasonable trade requests?

[sealman]

Originally posted by rdomarat


That is crazy! I've run into the exact same thing myself. I was at the car dealership yesterday, and wanted to buy a $20,000 car. The salesman suggested that instead of me giving them $20,000 right now, that I could give $5,000 right now, and then give him $345 a month for 4 years. I asked to borrow his calculator and found out that I would end up paying almost $21,500 for the car with this new "deal"! I told him to stick it where the sun don't shine and walked out.

My "mortgage broker" offered me similar "deals". This is a strange world we live in my friend. If you don't watch your ever move, you're going to get ripped off.

You are not getting ripped off. The fact of the matter is that you are borrowing money to pay for these things thus paying interest on the money you are borrowing. But back to civ...

I wish that you could loan gold to the AI at some set interest rate.

I have gotten fed up with trying to obtain resources and luxuries with the AI that I stop trading at all. I now take what I want and need. When the oil runs out, I sell my little outpost.

 

[Beamup]

Originally posted by rdomarat


That is crazy! I've run into the exact same thing myself. I was at the car dealership yesterday, and wanted to buy a $20,000 car. The salesman suggested that instead of me giving them $20,000 right now, that I could give $5,000 right now, and then give him $345 a month for 4 years. I asked to borrow his calculator and found out that I would end up paying almost $21,500 for the car with this new "deal"! I told him to stick it where the sun don't shine and walked out.

My "mortgage broker" offered me similar "deals". This is a strange world we live in my friend. If you don't watch your ever move, you're going to get ripped off.

Actually this sort of thing is not unreasonable. Economists, when evaluating the value of things, apply a "discount rate," (typically ~5%, IIRC) applied over time, to reflect the fact that having something TODAY is better than having it in four years. To give a concrete example of why this is reasonable, consider rdomarat's example above. If you invested the $15,000, say in a mutual fund, and withdrew $345 a month to pay for the car, it would be quite possible to, over those four years, get a return on your investment of well over $1,500. Of course, it's also possible you might not have the $20,000 available right now, so by extending the payments you might be able to get a car this year instead of waiting two years, say. Then you'd have a newer car for two years, which has a nonzero value that may or may not be greater than $1,500, depending on the situation.

That being said, there are certainly unreasonable such things out there. Short-term loans at 50% monthly interest, for example - it's hard to think of a situation where such a thing would be profitable for the borrower. Personally, I tend to think that somebody who agrees to such a thing without considering the consequences deserves what they get. I've been told I'm not a very nice person, though.:crazyeyes

 

[Willem]

Originally posted by Astral
Why does everyone hate you, just becuase you are the #1 civ?

Because people always hate the most powerful nation. You make them nervous.

 

[joe75]

I agree with rdomarat inorder to have a good trading partner sometimes you have to give them a gift with no strings attached. Generally it can be something relatively insignificant to you however it gives the AI a boost. Also, it seems that the advisor is very smart so if he says the deal wont go it probably wont. If you offer an unacceptable deal to the AI it gets pissed off and will want more inorder to get a successful trade. This being the case if the advisor can tell you exactly what is acceptable why can't he just display it up front. I get tired of haveing to adjust my offer ten times to get the most bang for my buck.

One final grip is the trading between AI's. In general I think the trade much more freely amongst themselves then with me. This being the case I don't accept any trades offered to me on an AI's turn. If you accept the trade whatever you gave him will be provided to all the other AI's before your turn. If I trade a tech with one I usually offer it to all of them. This way even if I only get 30 gold from the first AI if I can get 30 gold from each of them it adds up to a good profit.

 

[Talar]

I'm wondering what consequences this will have in multiplayer. If you play for example with 6 human players and 2 AI civs, will the AI civs team up against the humans? (at least when it comes to trading).

This might be wrong, but I remember reading somewhere that the AI was supposed to treat all it's opponents equal - that it could in fact not even tell if another civ is human or not.

I don't mind the AI cheating by having advantages to be more of a challenge, but I would prefer if the human/AI play styles were more alike. As it is now I feel a bit "left out" of the internatinal trading market

 

[Akka]

Originally posted by rdomarat


That is crazy! I've run into the exact same thing myself. I was at the car dealership yesterday, and wanted to buy a $20,000 car. The salesman suggested that instead of me giving them $20,000 right now, that I could give $5,000 right now, and then give him $345 a month for 4 years. I asked to borrow his calculator and found out that I would end up paying almost $21,500 for the car with this new "deal"! I told him to stick it where the sun don't shine and walked out.

My "mortgage broker" offered me similar "deals". This is a strange world we live in my friend. If you don't watch your ever move, you're going to get ripped off.

???
YOU are the clueless, man. By letting you pay a monthly fee rather than all the money right now, the salesman is making you a favor ; so the 1500 $ are the payment for this favor. You think that you could walk to a bank, and ask for a loan at 0 % ? I think that 1500 $ for a 4-years loan of 15000 $ is quite reasonnable.
And I might add, with the inflation, your 1500 $ now will value slightly less than 1500 $ in four years.



Back on subject :
What I hate is the feeling that the AI just seems to consider that IT makes you a FAVOR when it propose anything to you. A trade is based on common interest, and I find it really dull that either you won't make a deal because it's not worth it, either you will do it but only because you are in a desperate position. It's extremely rare that I conclude anything close to a fair trade with the AI, which is always completely dreaming in its expectations. The fact that the bigger you are, the higher are the prices, is quite dumb (usually, it's the strongers that bully the weakers, not the other way around), and lead to stupid events, like the times where I offered 150 gold, asked 100 in exchange, and got a "they would feel insulted by this deal".

 

[rdomarat]

Akka, beamup and Sealman, do you all have your sarcasm filters on? I thought I was laying the sarcasm on pretty thick about the car salesman, but I guess not.

Thanks for the lessons on interest though!

 

[lawren8]

Originally posted by tmai
And like Beamup, out of boredom I often tried to trade my empire for one city and the deal is always refused.

Also, this may have changed after the patches, because I haven't tried this lately, but a nice exploitive deal used to be to trade some of your valuable cities for something you want badly (tech maybe). If the deal is accepted the cities will change sides but become undefended, and you can simply walk in again with a single unit. You will loose the cultural improvements of the cities but that's not much of an issue with industrial age production levels.

This exploit was patched in 1.16. The AI refuses to trade cities except as a concession for a peace treaty when it is losing badly.

 

[brody]

this is just odd... I've had no trouble getting trades. The AI must just be very cruel to those in the lead. I'm in the middle in my monarch game, but I'm leading the tech race, and I rarely get less than 5 gpt for a tech. From the two or three superpowers, I get 50+ gpt. One time Germany even gave me something like 180 gpt AND 500 gold for a single tech.

So is it realistic to penalize the superpowers by making them pay more for your stuff? I don't know. If I had to guess I'd say yes. A peaceful superpower will be expected to help those less fortunate. You may all hate us US folk, but we do spend a lot of money helping other countries that are less fortunate, and I imagine if that stopped, we'd be looked down upon.

A warmongering superpower, on the other hand, should be the one pushing people around. He shouldn't expect others to say "here, let me give you money and techs!" because after all, the other civs are still expecting a superpower to help those less fortunate. If you're the superpower and you want to be a bully, you can't do it with a passive attitude like that.

 

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by Killer
yeah, you`re more than right! But it still feels good

Which just goes to show that not all decisions people* make are rational, but may have a basis in other factors including pride, anger, excitement, foolishness, sentiment, ignorance, prejudice, etc.


* Including individuals, leaders, nations and AIs.

 

[MikeV]

Originally posted by Beamup
I actually have the opposite happen all the time. The AI will, say, agree to 100 lump sum, but won't pay 1/turn. In fact, in my games, they will NEVER do much gpt at all. Kind of annoying when I try to be a tech broker but nobody has any gold

I think the 1st part (not offer gold/turn) means the AI doesn't trust you to honor the full 20 turns of the agreement.

I think the 2nd part (nobody has any gold) means you've bled them dry.

 

[MikeV]

Originally posted by rdomarat
Later in the game, the AI often comes in with a offer of his territory map for my territory map and 300 gold, and odds are they are "Annoyed" with me. We're done exapnding and all the land is already taken, so the value of maps is greatly reduced. I don't really want his map, but he wants mine, so I give it to them as a gift. They walk away from the table happy. Sometimes I'll even float them 5 gold just for the fun of it, or toss an obselete tech their way if I'm in the lead.

I've found that a Civ is much more likely to offer reasonable deals if relations are good.

I've done this, as well. It also improves the odds of them voting for you in the UN.

 

[MikeV]

Originally posted by sealman
I wish that you could loan gold to the AI at some set interest rate.

I have gotten fed up with trying to obtain resources and luxuries with the AI that I stop trading at all. I now take what I want and need. When the oil runs out, I sell my little outpost.

It does seem a little odd, that you can ask for a loan, but not offer one.

You can sell a colony? I didn't know that (nor can I figure out how to make it happen).

 

[MikeV]

Originally posted by Beamup
That being said, there are certainly unreasonable such things out there. Short-term loans at 50% monthly interest, for example - it's hard to think of a situation where such a thing would be profitable for the borrower.

Yeah, and a guy (usually named Vito, or something similar) who comes around to collect "for the family" -- or else break your kneecaps.

It's "profitable for the borrower" when they let you stay alive.


(Sorry, couldn't resist: I grew up in northern New Jersey.)

 

[MikeV]

Originally posted by Willem
Because people always hate the most powerful nation. You make them nervous.

This, the corruption problem, and the AI's hyper-active tech trading, are actually designed in on purpose. They're examples of "negative feedback," or throttling, designed to keep the AI in the game when you would otherwise have an insurmountable lead.

 

[Moulton]

Well, its all over the board. LIke th e AI//// I had a dealer ask me for 26000 for a year old truck (almost sticker new price) When I started to walk out, he suggested in a highly talk down voice, that maybe I should make a counter offer... I did--19000... Book value. He said, No, I meant a Real offer.... I didnt buy...


Ususlly the Ai want far too much from me to trade. Some times I will pay, because I really need it...
And sometimes it's easy. India wanted tech, lux and 800 gold for its ivory...but gave me ivory and 50 gold for my gems... on a counter offer...
Then again, when France attacked, both Greece and Rome were happy to go to war for onc excess luxury... and Persia just for my world map.... Welcome aboard boys..

I think the AI values the map as a sign of friendship, or at least not going to war. If you are planning war, you DONT want them to have you r territory map--and they know it. If you give it in trade, you have nothing to hide, and they are happy.

 

[Ironikinit]

I used to haggle over the price of everything but it got old.

Now I ask what it wants for, say, refining. Scientific method and ivory, it says. I check to see if it can do without either one, but usually it insists on both. So then I click refining and ask what it will offer for SciMeth and ivory. Usually it will give refining + map + gold. I add on some more gold and call it good.

 

[siredgar]

If the AI comes up to me and says, "I know, you're a tough negotiator, Joan of Arc, but let's make a deal." Then it should not try to offer me a deal that I have been refusing from other civs. My original point was that I get so annoyed by AI's coming up to me and asking me for the same unreasonable trades that I have refused over and over. They should learn that I'm not a sucker like that.

For the critics of my criticism, I acknowledge that the AI in Civ 3 is superb. There, I am not a troll, okay. BUT there is always room for improvement. Also, if I can't vent out my frustration with the AI's unreasonable trade requests in Civ 3 here, then who am I going to vent out to? My mother?

Anyhow, your complaints about complaints sound just as annoying to me.

I say rant on.

 

[Moulton]

I used to bargain for a few gold more... rarely got more than 3 more, but have gotten some really great trades. But, it seems that their attitude is better if you don't haggle so much. Unlike the real world, where in a haggling economy they look down on the rich fools that pay whatever is asked... but the economy where it the price is 15 gold, and you only want to pay 12, then buy something cheaper...

It sometimes depends on how bad they need it, sometimes I think it is a random number. Last night JOan offered 5 gold for iron at the beginning, -- I think all she could afford. When that deal ran out, she was willing to pay 65 to renew it...

 

[sealman]

I meant that I give up my little city that I set up to claim a resource, not the colony though selling that does seem like a good idea.

Question: If you found a colony on top of a strategic resouce that disappears, does the colony vanish as well? I would assume so but never verified this.