Zachriel
Kaiser
Read the sign behind the store counter
NO CREDIT. Cash Only.
Who else is sick of AI's unreasonable trade requests?
- Thread starter siredgar
- Start date
Read the sign behind the store counter
NO CREDIT. Cash Only.
Zachriel
Kaiser
Downloaded 1.17f the first opportunity. I'm not sure why they won't trade with you. I usually start trading from the beginning. Maybe that helps build up a relationship.
My experience with GPT:
All difficulties up to Monarch.
I never break treaties (OK, in one game I did... but nobody knew about it, they weren't in contact yet).
Usually everyone is polite to me.
As a general rule I have a stronger military according to my advisor.
Generally they are, at a minimum, impressed with my culture.
1.16f Mac.
Even civs that have several hundred gold in the bank and an apparent per-turn income of 50+ gold (checking their treasury size on consecutive turns) will NOT, under any circumstances, pay me gpt except for resources. NEVER for tech. An example:
The French have a treasury of ~800 gold, apparently are making 60+ per turn (under Democracy). We have been friends for a long time, trading various things every 5 turns or so. I offer Free Artistry, Economics, Gunpowder, AND Astronomy. Shakespeare, Smith, and Copernicus have not yet been built. They will pay their entire treasury for this (in fact, I can take away any of these techs and they will still pay their entire treasury). However, if I ask for 1 gpt (and nothing else), "they will be insulted by this deal." Just to make sure, I tried 5 gpt increments up to 100 - always, "they will be insulted by this deal." I try offering each tech individually - for none of them alone will they pay gpt either. I sell them the 3 but Gunpowder to empty their treasury, then put Gunpowder on the table and ask for their offer. What do they offer? World Map - and if I now ask for 1 gpt instead, you guessed it, "they will be insulted by this deal."
This is how it always works for me. The AI is just far too averse to paying gpt in my games. The only logical reason I can think of is that they don't want to commit to a 20-turn treaty because it limits their options - i.e. if they decided in 10 turns they wanted to go to war, they'd take a rep hit from it. But, they always seem ecstatic to sign RoPs, so this doesn't really make sense either.
All difficulties up to Monarch.
I never break treaties (OK, in one game I did... but nobody knew about it, they weren't in contact yet).
Usually everyone is polite to me.
As a general rule I have a stronger military according to my advisor.
Generally they are, at a minimum, impressed with my culture.
1.16f Mac.
Even civs that have several hundred gold in the bank and an apparent per-turn income of 50+ gold (checking their treasury size on consecutive turns) will NOT, under any circumstances, pay me gpt except for resources. NEVER for tech. An example:
The French have a treasury of ~800 gold, apparently are making 60+ per turn (under Democracy). We have been friends for a long time, trading various things every 5 turns or so. I offer Free Artistry, Economics, Gunpowder, AND Astronomy. Shakespeare, Smith, and Copernicus have not yet been built. They will pay their entire treasury for this (in fact, I can take away any of these techs and they will still pay their entire treasury). However, if I ask for 1 gpt (and nothing else), "they will be insulted by this deal." Just to make sure, I tried 5 gpt increments up to 100 - always, "they will be insulted by this deal." I try offering each tech individually - for none of them alone will they pay gpt either. I sell them the 3 but Gunpowder to empty their treasury, then put Gunpowder on the table and ask for their offer. What do they offer? World Map - and if I now ask for 1 gpt instead, you guessed it, "they will be insulted by this deal."
This is how it always works for me. The AI is just far too averse to paying gpt in my games. The only logical reason I can think of is that they don't want to commit to a 20-turn treaty because it limits their options - i.e. if they decided in 10 turns they wanted to go to war, they'd take a rep hit from it. But, they always seem ecstatic to sign RoPs, so this doesn't really make sense either.
Thought I'd post a specific example I pulled up from my first ever game. The offered deal is (you can't see it all in the screen) World Map, 5794 gold, Mathematics, Literature, Code of Laws, Philosophy, Iron, and a Worker for 1 gpt. "They will never accept such a deal." Other screens showing further aspects of deals at this point are available upon request.
Oh, and BTW, that's right - I was in the modern age (this is the turn before I got a culture win) before they were anywhere near finishing the ancient era. And Japan was, IIRC, the most advanced AI. It WAS Chieftain difficulty, after all.
Oh, and BTW, that's right - I was in the modern age (this is the turn before I got a culture win) before they were anywhere near finishing the ancient era. And Japan was, IIRC, the most advanced AI. It WAS Chieftain difficulty, after all.
Attachments
MindRunner
Faithful to CIV since 1991. :)
I was playing in Monarch.
Tell me just one more thing: how much money can you make for selling your advances in the *Ancient* era?
I guess that prices differ a lot between eras, and I was only referring to Ancient era, where I guess prices are lower...
However, please let us all know how you manage to get such a big income! I guess you must be a hell of a good negotiator!
Im not being ironic, I really mean it. Tell us your tricks, because Im about to give up on trading with the AI.
MindRunner
Faithful to CIV since 1991. :)
Im sorry if Im being dummy, but I really dont understand what you mean by store counter in the context of Civilization. Could you please be clearer?
What are you referring to?
Ok. I will try doing trade as asap from now on, even if its not advantageous to me, and then I will see the results of that. Thanks for the advice.
MindRunner
Faithful to CIV since 1991. :)
Im more relieved now! Its not only with me that those things happen!
Beamup, we must have been playing the same games!
I did exactly one such experiment as you describe, and obtained the same results
Im afraid that Firaxis is trying to solve some problems, by doing exactly the opposite, which ends up creating the inverse problem , what a pity
Beamup, I had a really *good* laugh with your attached image!
LOLIts exactly what happens with me! They do not want any per turn trade. Thats why I dont understand why others can do that! :crazyeyes.
Hurricane
Sleeping Dragon
- Joined
- Dec 6, 2001
- Messages
- 1,197
Originally posted by Silvagem
However, please let us all know how you manage to get such a big income! I guess you must be a hell of a good negotiator!
Im not being ironic, I really mean it. Tell us your tricks, because Im about to give up on trading with the AI.
Do you mean me? I get only crappy delas from the AI - look at my screenshots: sell 2 starting techs for 10 gold or polytheism for 34 gold. That´s not my definition of a good deal.
On the other hand, you can sometimes buy tech from the AI for a really cheap price (under 100 gold). And they can still give you lots of money for resources.
MindRunner
Faithful to CIV since 1991. :)
Originally posted by Hurricane
Do you mean me?
Oooops! Im really sorry Hurricane.
I thought it was you, but it was WUM, who was saying he can get several 100 gold per turn with the AI.
Id like to know hes tricks! ;-)
Zachriel
Kaiser
Originally posted by Silvagem
Im sorry if Im being dummy, but I really dont understand what you mean by store counter in the context of Civilization. Could you please be clearer?
Sorry
for being so obtuse. A common sign in grocery stores and in laundries says "No Credit. Cash Only."Being in business, I find it is often better to take the cash than a promise to pay later, no matter the terms offered. Other times you can't strike a deal no matter the terms -- if they don't like you or don't trust you.
brody
Pathetic Loser
maybe this has to do with patching... like if you installed 1.16f and then patched to 1.17f, or if you installed straight from CD and then installed the 1.17f patch.
Or maybe you got the Feb. 14th patch vs. the Feb. 15th patch (apparently they are different)...
Could everybody post their trade results + patching information and see if we can find a common trend? I wish I could post some info, but I still really suck at this game and can't seem to get ANY trades going
Or maybe you got the Feb. 14th patch vs. the Feb. 15th patch (apparently they are different)...
Could everybody post their trade results + patching information and see if we can find a common trend? I wish I could post some info, but I still really suck at this game and can't seem to get ANY trades going
Zouave
Crusader
- Joined
- Dec 21, 2001
- Messages
- 1,603
The Aztecs (Polite) were just offered a swap of World Maps plus I threw in a major tech - Literature. NO DEAL.
Same game, against Persia: I offered a swap of equivalent techs plus I threw in saltpeter. No deal. When I asked what that they would want for that tech they asked for exactly what I offered in the first place - but WITHOUT the saltpeter! In otherwords, they would only accept a deal that was LESS than what I originally offered.
Real slick, that AI. :crazyeyes
Same game, against Persia: I offered a swap of equivalent techs plus I threw in saltpeter. No deal. When I asked what that they would want for that tech they asked for exactly what I offered in the first place - but WITHOUT the saltpeter! In otherwords, they would only accept a deal that was LESS than what I originally offered.
Real slick, that AI. :crazyeyes
Hurricane
Sleeping Dragon
- Joined
- Dec 6, 2001
- Messages
- 1,197
Well, this weekend I actually succeeded in getting 2 per turn-deals with AI in my ongoing game! 
One was when I traded literarture to the Japanese: I got world map, 40 gold and 5 gold per turn. The other was when I traded Iron to the Indians. This was even better, with about 20 gold per turn. I´ll try to post the screenshot tomorrow (forgot the file at home).
Also, I noticed that embassies will make relations better. I wanted to ally with Egyptians (who at this time were annoyed), but had no embassy with them. I founded one, and immediaty they turned Polite! Anyobody else seen this?
One was when I traded literarture to the Japanese: I got world map, 40 gold and 5 gold per turn. The other was when I traded Iron to the Indians. This was even better, with about 20 gold per turn. I´ll try to post the screenshot tomorrow (forgot the file at home).
Also, I noticed that embassies will make relations better. I wanted to ally with Egyptians (who at this time were annoyed), but had no embassy with them. I founded one, and immediaty they turned Polite! Anyobody else seen this?
Carbon_Copy
Elemental
Here's an Emperor-level succession game (started in 1.16 but finished in 1.17) that ended in a diplo win without the players ever leaving their island or even building a single ship. The only parts of the map they ever saw besides their homeland were foreign capitals due to embassies. There are also LOTS of gpt deals struck with the AI during this game.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15332
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15332
Hi, i´m back. After many hours of playing...
I played on Regent, Germans, huge map, 16 civs. I contacted about 5 very early on. Build embassies with all of them. I was hardly researching in science. They loved me.
What i do is:
i build cities near resources and close to enemy cities, to get those by culture.
i go to war quite early with one or two civs. I choose them by 1. location, 2. resources, 3. strength. I want to conquer a civ that is close to me, has resources i lack and has many cities but is not to strong. I hunt them down till they´re almost extinct... Then i offer peace in return for all their remaining cities, all their techs + gold + communication + worldmap. They usually accept, otherwise i finish them. After this profitable peace, i get many more cities for free (still small, which is a good thing). And i get many techs for free. 20 turns later, i declare war and get their capitol and maybe their new founded cities.
I always make sure not to break any treatise. So i never offer peace if that means i break a mutual protection pact. In such a case, i first cancel this pact.
By this time i have contacted all civs. I´m lucky enough to be on a huge continent with 7 (used to be 9) civs. Also i have many techs from the 2 conquered civs. I build embassies with all civs, then sell them all i have, well, all they can afford...
If another civ has i tech i don´t have, i need it, no matter what is costs. I give them all my techs to get it. Usually they wil sell me anything except for their latest discovered tech.
Because of 16 civs, i get a lot of money. I set lux at 10% (my people get extatic!) and science at 90% (sometimes at 80% because it will take as long to discovering the next tech. and as low as possible if only 1 turn is left to the discovery). This way i get to be way ahead in science in no time. In this fase i want to keep my treasury almost empty. I do not want other civs to come to me and ask money, leaving me the choice to give it away or to face him in another war... I hate wars in this fase. all i want to do is be a techleader now.
So after the 20 turn dealings have ended i sell them new techs. I´ve gotten used to asking them what they would offer me for a certain tech. Then i immediately agree, even though i know i can get a little more in many cases. Because many civs are 'behind' they are eager to pay me. Especially for military techs and techs that uncover new resources, that make improvements possible with those resources. These resources are also very valuable.
With trading techs, my rule is to trade the same tech to everybody who can pay me substantial amounts. I found that tech-value decreases in turns and/or with the number of civs that 'know' about it. If i sell it in the same turn, everybody that can afford it, will pay me real money.
So first i go to war and strip them of everything. I build a copple of cities on important spots. Then i build embassies and culture producing improvements (important for their attitude) and make my first small deals. Than i get to be the tech-leader and get rich. I believe that militaristic civs will pay much more for military techs and that scientific civs will pay much more for scientific techs, etc. I don´t realy care much since i sell the same tech to everybody at once.
Once i´m rich, i rushbuild as much cultural and scientific improvements + Wonders. In a certain stage, i build all the Wonders.
Finally the time comes when they get jealous... In my Germans-game i was surprised... So i rushed many modern units and rolled up the French. They were furious, but after their recuperation on another, smaller island they were eager to pay me big time for the tech to build infantry... They were too small anyway to be a threat.
Later on i made was surprised because at once all civs seemed to be much closer in researche. I went to minus 300 gold/turn. I almost panicked. I had to sell them all my resources, luxuries and techs to stay alive financially (without bringing my 90%-research down). Once they had the same techs, many went to war with me. I defended my self only and superbly (is that a word?). The problem was, they didn´t want to talk to me for a loooooong time, so i could not get peace and because of war weariness i had to make 75% of my people into entertainers...
I found out that making peace with 1 civ (still at war with 4 others) had a possitive effect on warweariness. And when the enemies finally wanted to talk with me, i got peace AND, probably because it had taken so long, they gave me gold + cities with it! After that my people were thrilled and loved me. I needed no more entertainers. Techadvances every 4 turns. Cities flipped to my side. And after a copple of turns AI contacted me because they wanted to pay me for the newest techs. I sold everything expect my latest discovery. When i sold i also contacted the others to sell it to them.
Important to win: i saved a leader to rushbuild the last part of my spaceship, or if needed the UN.
But suddenly i won, because i had more than 100000 cultural points.
I´m trying the same on monarch now. Fase one, contacting + war went fine. Now i am science number 2... almost there. But i can not get enough money from other civs (just not enough AI, since i´m not playing on a huge map and i´m the iroquois: definitely not so financially educated as the germans were...). So i might have to use my cavalry...
In the ancient era i don´t or hardly sell any techs. I´m just to busy with conquering and gaining. The industrial tech however is the time to be rich and by then ai is willing to pay.
bottomline:
- don´t try to get as much as possible.
- don´t break any treaties.
- build ambassies.
- get their techs early on, as wel as their contacts + worldmaps.
- be a techleader.
- don´t let them get to far behind unless you want a war declared at you.
- be very carefull with mutual protection pacts.
I played on Regent, Germans, huge map, 16 civs. I contacted about 5 very early on. Build embassies with all of them. I was hardly researching in science. They loved me.
What i do is:
i build cities near resources and close to enemy cities, to get those by culture.
i go to war quite early with one or two civs. I choose them by 1. location, 2. resources, 3. strength. I want to conquer a civ that is close to me, has resources i lack and has many cities but is not to strong. I hunt them down till they´re almost extinct... Then i offer peace in return for all their remaining cities, all their techs + gold + communication + worldmap. They usually accept, otherwise i finish them. After this profitable peace, i get many more cities for free (still small, which is a good thing). And i get many techs for free. 20 turns later, i declare war and get their capitol and maybe their new founded cities.
I always make sure not to break any treatise. So i never offer peace if that means i break a mutual protection pact. In such a case, i first cancel this pact.
By this time i have contacted all civs. I´m lucky enough to be on a huge continent with 7 (used to be 9) civs. Also i have many techs from the 2 conquered civs. I build embassies with all civs, then sell them all i have, well, all they can afford...
If another civ has i tech i don´t have, i need it, no matter what is costs. I give them all my techs to get it. Usually they wil sell me anything except for their latest discovered tech.
Because of 16 civs, i get a lot of money. I set lux at 10% (my people get extatic!) and science at 90% (sometimes at 80% because it will take as long to discovering the next tech. and as low as possible if only 1 turn is left to the discovery). This way i get to be way ahead in science in no time. In this fase i want to keep my treasury almost empty. I do not want other civs to come to me and ask money, leaving me the choice to give it away or to face him in another war... I hate wars in this fase. all i want to do is be a techleader now.
So after the 20 turn dealings have ended i sell them new techs. I´ve gotten used to asking them what they would offer me for a certain tech. Then i immediately agree, even though i know i can get a little more in many cases. Because many civs are 'behind' they are eager to pay me. Especially for military techs and techs that uncover new resources, that make improvements possible with those resources. These resources are also very valuable.
With trading techs, my rule is to trade the same tech to everybody who can pay me substantial amounts. I found that tech-value decreases in turns and/or with the number of civs that 'know' about it. If i sell it in the same turn, everybody that can afford it, will pay me real money.
So first i go to war and strip them of everything. I build a copple of cities on important spots. Then i build embassies and culture producing improvements (important for their attitude) and make my first small deals. Than i get to be the tech-leader and get rich. I believe that militaristic civs will pay much more for military techs and that scientific civs will pay much more for scientific techs, etc. I don´t realy care much since i sell the same tech to everybody at once.
Once i´m rich, i rushbuild as much cultural and scientific improvements + Wonders. In a certain stage, i build all the Wonders.
Finally the time comes when they get jealous... In my Germans-game i was surprised... So i rushed many modern units and rolled up the French. They were furious, but after their recuperation on another, smaller island they were eager to pay me big time for the tech to build infantry... They were too small anyway to be a threat.
Later on i made was surprised because at once all civs seemed to be much closer in researche. I went to minus 300 gold/turn. I almost panicked. I had to sell them all my resources, luxuries and techs to stay alive financially (without bringing my 90%-research down). Once they had the same techs, many went to war with me. I defended my self only and superbly (is that a word?). The problem was, they didn´t want to talk to me for a loooooong time, so i could not get peace and because of war weariness i had to make 75% of my people into entertainers...
I found out that making peace with 1 civ (still at war with 4 others) had a possitive effect on warweariness. And when the enemies finally wanted to talk with me, i got peace AND, probably because it had taken so long, they gave me gold + cities with it! After that my people were thrilled and loved me. I needed no more entertainers. Techadvances every 4 turns. Cities flipped to my side. And after a copple of turns AI contacted me because they wanted to pay me for the newest techs. I sold everything expect my latest discovery. When i sold i also contacted the others to sell it to them.
Important to win: i saved a leader to rushbuild the last part of my spaceship, or if needed the UN.
But suddenly i won, because i had more than 100000 cultural points.
I´m trying the same on monarch now. Fase one, contacting + war went fine. Now i am science number 2... almost there. But i can not get enough money from other civs (just not enough AI, since i´m not playing on a huge map and i´m the iroquois: definitely not so financially educated as the germans were...). So i might have to use my cavalry...
In the ancient era i don´t or hardly sell any techs. I´m just to busy with conquering and gaining. The industrial tech however is the time to be rich and by then ai is willing to pay.
bottomline:
- don´t try to get as much as possible.
- don´t break any treaties.
- build ambassies.
- get their techs early on, as wel as their contacts + worldmaps.
- be a techleader.
- don´t let them get to far behind unless you want a war declared at you.
- be very carefull with mutual protection pacts.
Originally posted by Silvagem
I was playing in Monarch.
Tell me just one more thing: how much money can you make for selling your advances in the *Ancient* era?
I guess that prices differ a lot between eras, and I was only referring to Ancient era, where I guess prices are lower...
However, please let us all know how you manage to get such a big income! I guess you must be a hell of a good negotiator!
Im not being ironic, I really mean it. Tell us your tricks, because Im about to give up on trading with the AI.
I wonder if what level your diploomats are (conscript - elite) impacts the kind of trade deal you can get. Given the way the trade advisor works (i.e. you know unless he says the deal is ok that it won't be) maybe we should have an AI trade negotiator who improves with experience (conscript - elite). That way you would just put what you want on the bargaining table, the trade negotiator says "here's the best deal I could get, is it ok?" then you either accept it or make some changes and send it back for more negotiations.
sealman
Hater of Babylonians
Originally posted by brody
maybe this has to do with patching... like if you installed 1.16f and then patched to 1.17f, or if you installed straight from CD and then installed the 1.17f patch.
Or maybe you got the Feb. 14th patch vs. the Feb. 15th patch (apparently they are different)...
Could everybody post their trade results + patching information and see if we can find a common trend? I wish I could post some info, but I still really suck at this game and can't seem to get ANY trades going
Out of the box: lousy AI tade demands
patch 1.16f: lousy AI trade demands
pathc 1.17f (2/15): lousy AI trade demands
I noticed no change in the AI Trading between patches and the box, except I did have a civ beg for peace last night... I went to bed with a
Originally posted by WUM
HOW can you not have explored 80% of the map the turn before you won???
Never bothered to, since I could see no reason to do so, and the AIs never explored and found me because most of them didn't even have Map Making yet
. That was the only game I did that in, though.brody
Pathetic Loser
weird... when I was on 1.16, I got 300 gpt easily from techs. I'm finally doing okay on a 1.17 game (I suck as I've said before), but the best I've done is about 80 gpt, and that was because I had JUST finished researching the tech... seems like you have to have a VERY new tech to get decent gpt.
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