sealman
Hater of Babylonians
I still call my mother to vent. Of course she has not clue what I am venting about
Who else is sick of AI's unreasonable trade requests?
- Thread starter siredgar
- Start date
I still call my mother to vent. Of course she has not clue what I am venting about
Hurricane
Sleeping Dragon
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- Dec 6, 2001
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- 1,197
Originally posted by MikeV
I think the 1st part (not offer gold/turn) means the AI doesn't trust you to honor the full 20 turns of the agreement.
I think the 2nd part (nobody has any gold) means you've bled them dry.
The point is that the AI should prefer per turn payments if it doesn´t trust you. If you sell a tech for 5/turn, you will be the loset if you declare war on the AI, not the AI. Still, I can´t sell anything for gold per turn after the 1.17 patch.
The only reason for this that I can figure, is that they changed the AI so that it won´t increase its taxes in order to be able to pay gold per turn. This way you can´t tech broker them to a 0% science production.
Have a look at these screenshots. Do they make sense?
Attachments
What do you expect????? 
China is cautious and they don´t have any more gold then 36 gold. So they can´t AFFORD to pay you more!!!
It means the AI is SMART because they can´t give you more then they have (that would be a bug...).
Problem is that China probably has no income per turn since they are allready paying their entire income to you or other AI, per turn that is. Check the active deals.
I do not have the slightest problem selling techs for more then 50 gold/turn. But once i have consumed their entire treasure ánd their income per turn, i just wait (usually i conquer a very poor AI while i wait). After 20 turns the deal ends, they will have gold once again, so i trade again!
I´m 'science-number-1', very rich, very popular, have the most cities, resources and stuff as well as a huge culture since i can rushbuy all improvements... and the ai? well, they don´t have any money and no or very low researche, so the don´t get civilized... I win!
China is cautious and they don´t have any more gold then 36 gold. So they can´t AFFORD to pay you more!!!
It means the AI is SMART because they can´t give you more then they have (that would be a bug...).
Problem is that China probably has no income per turn since they are allready paying their entire income to you or other AI, per turn that is. Check the active deals.
I do not have the slightest problem selling techs for more then 50 gold/turn. But once i have consumed their entire treasure ánd their income per turn, i just wait (usually i conquer a very poor AI while i wait). After 20 turns the deal ends, they will have gold once again, so i trade again!
I´m 'science-number-1', very rich, very popular, have the most cities, resources and stuff as well as a huge culture since i can rushbuy all improvements... and the ai? well, they don´t have any money and no or very low researche, so the don´t get civilized... I win!
Hurricane
Sleeping Dragon
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Your statement makes no sense.
China has 34 gold - if they pay me 1 per turn they will still have 16 left at the end of the deal. And because they happily will pay me 34 now (emptying their treasury), they can´t have a negative income per turn. They could of course have a 0 income per turn, but this happens to me all the time. I have got exactly 0 (zero) per turn deals after the patch.
China has 34 gold - if they pay me 1 per turn they will still have 16 left at the end of the deal. And because they happily will pay me 34 now (emptying their treasury), they can´t have a negative income per turn. They could of course have a 0 income per turn, but this happens to me all the time. I have got exactly 0 (zero) per turn deals after the patch.
Lt. 'Killer' M.
Deity
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Hurricane: the offer for starting tech is the same I get (Regent level). Maybe sometimes 2 for 1, when i can offer 2 militray techs (warrior Code + Bronze Working), but otherwise 3:1. With other AI it`s 1:1 !!!!!
Not fair!
Not fair!
i see your point Hurricane.
But i think the AI only pays per turn from it´s income per turn.
and only pays lump sum from it´s treasure.
Besides, why bother if they want to pay you more than neccesary?
Something that DOES bother me is that they will be insulted when i counteroffer them the same as their original offer to me..! I guess that is a result of cheating AI. I think when they call me for a deal they are not held back by their income or treasure.
so i usually accept those deals now, since they only make me better
But i think the AI only pays per turn from it´s income per turn.
and only pays lump sum from it´s treasure.
Besides, why bother if they want to pay you more than neccesary?
Something that DOES bother me is that they will be insulted when i counteroffer them the same as their original offer to me..! I guess that is a result of cheating AI. I think when they call me for a deal they are not held back by their income or treasure.
so i usually accept those deals now, since they only make me better
Hurricane
Sleeping Dragon
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Ok, now that we understand each other, let´s get down to the point, which in my opinion is that the AI has changed trading tactics with at least the human player in the new patch.
Of course I wouldn´t want 1 gold per turn instead of 34 right away, but earlier, gold per turn was the way to get some really high profits. The whole tech whoring strategy depends on this.
This is how it worked: you have 1 tech noone of the AI players has. You talk to all of them and offer the tech - from some you got 50 lump sum + 5 per turn and from some 100 lump sum and 30 per turn. With 16 civs, you very fast got several hundred gold per turn. Now, you get perhaps 500 lump sum total.
The trick with the tech whoring strat was that the AI drove himself bankrupt for a few techs, and had to put his tax to 100%, with all the income going to you. This way the human player got an even better tech lead, and every time the AI got a positive cash flow, you could sell them a new tech.
It is obvious that this is the reason the AI won´t pay you gold per turn anymore. I am just sorry that the completely removed this option like they removed buying and selling cities.
A few more patches and diplomacy will soon be totally removed from the game. Such a pity, because diplomacy is one of the cornerstones of Civilization.
I would almost say I´d prefer to de able to trade everything, and instead be unable to declare war on the AI for the 20 turns the deal lasts.
Of course I wouldn´t want 1 gold per turn instead of 34 right away, but earlier, gold per turn was the way to get some really high profits. The whole tech whoring strategy depends on this.
This is how it worked: you have 1 tech noone of the AI players has. You talk to all of them and offer the tech - from some you got 50 lump sum + 5 per turn and from some 100 lump sum and 30 per turn. With 16 civs, you very fast got several hundred gold per turn. Now, you get perhaps 500 lump sum total.
The trick with the tech whoring strat was that the AI drove himself bankrupt for a few techs, and had to put his tax to 100%, with all the income going to you. This way the human player got an even better tech lead, and every time the AI got a positive cash flow, you could sell them a new tech.
It is obvious that this is the reason the AI won´t pay you gold per turn anymore. I am just sorry that the completely removed this option like they removed buying and selling cities.
A few more patches and diplomacy will soon be totally removed from the game. Such a pity, because diplomacy is one of the cornerstones of Civilization.
I would almost say I´d prefer to de able to trade everything, and instead be unable to declare war on the AI for the 20 turns the deal lasts.
Ironikinit
Prince
Later in the game the AI will pay per turn sometimes. Yes, with the 1.17 patch.
I see your problem, but i simply do not have it.
I use the latest patch, play a game on regent or monarch, huge world. I sell techs every 20 turns to all AI. My income per turn varies between 200 and 600 gold. My science-rate is 90%. Luxury at 10%. So i don´t have any income from my own.
I´m in the industrial age now. My income per turn (with the same rate) was twice as high in the last age, because back then the AI still had money...
Maybe your problem is only something of the ancient era?
or you severely screwed up your reputation with those civ´s in the past, even though their attitude improved in time??
I use the latest patch, play a game on regent or monarch, huge world. I sell techs every 20 turns to all AI. My income per turn varies between 200 and 600 gold. My science-rate is 90%. Luxury at 10%. So i don´t have any income from my own.
I´m in the industrial age now. My income per turn (with the same rate) was twice as high in the last age, because back then the AI still had money...
Maybe your problem is only something of the ancient era?
or you severely screwed up your reputation with those civ´s in the past, even though their attitude improved in time??
Lt. 'Killer' M.
Deity
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You sure you use 1.17f???
I tried once to have good realtions: I never went to war, I always gave them whatever they asked for, I always accepted the deals they offered, I didn`t even counterattack when they sneak attacked me......... they never went better then polite and always turned annoyed after 3 or 4 turns.....
They are annoyed when I first meet them!!!!
loki
Warlord
Yes, we all agree the AI has been "improved" to counter this strategy in 1.17.
The way they did it (my guess) :
- no negative cash flow for techs : easy way means no gpt.
- low gold value for tech.
I think also, the value of a tech is even lower if you are well ahead?
loki
i´m absolutely sure about the patch-version.
i assume you have bad luck or i have good luck.
not once did they sneak attack me. I wiped out 2 civs, but without breaking any trades. And i usually ask what they want to give me for a certain tech and then i either accept their offer or the deal is off.
I don´t try to get as much as possible.
It probably helps to be the biggest, strongest and smartest civ of the world (not always the happiest).
btw, i´m the Germans in this game.
i assume you have bad luck or i have good luck.
not once did they sneak attack me. I wiped out 2 civs, but without breaking any trades. And i usually ask what they want to give me for a certain tech and then i either accept their offer or the deal is off.
I don´t try to get as much as possible.
It probably helps to be the biggest, strongest and smartest civ of the world (not always the happiest).
btw, i´m the Germans in this game.
Zachriel
Kaiser
Yes, I often get hundreds per turn with 1.17f, yes 1.17f. I don't always, though. It depends on many factors, including my perceived power, my reputation, how rich they are.
I start trading early. Indeed, I set science on 20% to start and trade for almost all my techs. The AIs seem to like trading. Then when I finally get currency, or whatever, I sell it fast starting with the richest AI.
brody
Pathetic Loser
Could it be difficulty-based? Maybe those of you with a tough time are on Diety and the others are not or something... just a thought.
MindRunner
Faithful to CIV since 1991. :)
Did you start your active game on v1.17f or the previous version?
After I applied the patch, I continued an old game, started on v1.16f, and I noticed nothing different.
But then, I started about 4 new games on the new patch, and Im always the most advanced culturally and more or less advanced in science, and I never manage to get a Per Turn turn trade, in any means!
So I can say that I *really* noticed a big difference in trading, as mentioned above, after I started a new game on the new patch v1.17f.
It reaches the point of complete nonsense, when the AI is (according to my incompetent advisor) more willing to accept:
a) 4 Gold (Lump Sum) than
b) 2 (Per turn)! (Ten times more, considering the 20 turns the deal will last.)
My advisor told that me that the French would be insulted by the option b), but that they would agree with a)!
I changed nothing else but this? Can someone make some sense out of this? :crazyeyes
Thanks!
yanyang989
Chieftain
- Joined
- Feb 21, 2002
- Messages
- 2
You can do that too when you have a "big" map , can't you?
btw, yesterday i wiped out a copple of civs (3 to be exact).
this was the second time i went into war if i remember correct.
i payed attention NOT to hurt my reputation.
however, after my +400 gold/turn-dealings ended 10 turns later (still at war), i went to -300 gold/turn. i wanted to sell new things to the remaining civ´s.
and guess what...
*suddenly they were many advances closer to me.
*AND i could only get some *real* money (+40 gold/turn) for military techs...
*one exception, the English still wanted to pay 11 gold/turn for one lux + 11 gold/turn for another lux OR they were willing to pay 26 gold/turn for both!!!!!!
now i just can´t earn more that about 80 gold/turn at 90%science + 10%lux.
this was the second time i went into war if i remember correct.
i payed attention NOT to hurt my reputation.
however, after my +400 gold/turn-dealings ended 10 turns later (still at war), i went to -300 gold/turn. i wanted to sell new things to the remaining civ´s.
and guess what...
*suddenly they were many advances closer to me.
*AND i could only get some *real* money (+40 gold/turn) for military techs...
*one exception, the English still wanted to pay 11 gold/turn for one lux + 11 gold/turn for another lux OR they were willing to pay 26 gold/turn for both!!!!!!
now i just can´t earn more that about 80 gold/turn at 90%science + 10%lux.
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