Who else is sick of AI's unreasonable trade requests?

[muppet]

Originally posted by brody
weird... when I was on 1.16, I got 300 gpt easily from techs. I'm finally doing okay on a 1.17 game (I suck as I've said before), but the best I've done is about 80 gpt, and that was because I had JUST finished researching the tech... seems like you have to have a VERY new tech to get decent gpt.

Not exactly. The idea is generally correct. But it is because the AI's trade more agressively now, and more amongst themselves too. Therefore, there is often accidentally less money available when you happen to discover a tech and are ready to trade it.

Prior to 1.17, the AI's had more gpt available because it didn't know how to use it. Now it more efficiently uses the available gpt whenever it can. At leat that's what it seems like.

2nd. Assuming 8 AI civs. If 2 civs in the game have it, the tech cost is reduced by 2/8 = 25%. Sometimes something as little as a 25% reduction in beaker cost can be as much as 10 turns or more in research time. Therefore AI evaluation is that this tech is worth-less as well. AI now better evaluates tech purchase cost to tech research cost.

 

[muppet]

I'm sorry guys, but I'm going to have to make a 'general' statement that most will not be happy with.

Between the original release up to this 1.17 patch I generally feel that the AI has traded pretty fairly from Monarch to Regeant. I've, laughingly, never had anything valuable to offer the AI at Emporer, so have little trading experience at that level.

I am sympathetic towards those who feel ripped off by the AI, but I would imagine that sooner or later, you will learn enough of the little nuances of the game to secure a diplomatic/trading edge against the AI.

To learn more for myself, I recently re-started the same game 4 times. I playtested various methods of play and expansion and learned that the AI can have very different attitudes towards my civ, and what it considers fair trade because of how it has developed and where it is now.

You guys have to pay more attention to what posters like Zachriel and Eyrei are saying. Failing that, keep an open mind and 'learn'.

Havings unintentionally insulted most of you, I must admit also I am tending towards agreement that the 1.17 tech/trade concept might not be very fun. I don't know yet, and simply have to play with it more before I can judge for myself if I like it. Though, as with those more knowledgeable than I, I can already beat it.

 

[Bamspeedy]

Check this out http://www.msnusers.com/BamSpeedysC...hoto&PhotoID=32

Regent level, v1.17f started the game from scratch after downloading the patch.

Some civs won't offer you anything for a tech because they don't have anything. They don't offer much at all for dead-end techs. Similar to the tech trading 'whoring', one AI civ can do this too. The very turn an AI civ has a tech he trades it to all the other civs, so now that civ is the richest civ on the planet. Get ahead of him in techs and you will be the richest. Another civ may also be very rich if it has been trading off an abundance of luxuries, sell to this guy first.

You won't get much at all for the early techs, because the AI is still into expanding and doesn't have a whole lot of cash. As you reach the late middle ages - industrial ages, the territory is pretty well developed and the AI has tons of money rolling in to be able to give you for your techs.

Edit: I give up on trying to post pictures, keep getting just the link posted. I was making 402 gold/turn plus 2 luxuries off the Greeks by selling techs.

 

[Beamup]

Bam - can't access that pic, why don't you just post it here?

The one thing that really bothers me about the AI trading is the totally asymmetrical fashion in which it treats humans and other AIs. By monitoring them using "multi" and the trade screen, I have been able to more or less track how much they demand of each other for a tech (in the Ancient era, where nobody's making any money per turn, so I can monitor more readily). When I compare this to how much they demand of me on Monarch, when they are polite to me, I invariably find that they demand at least 5 times as much from me - AFTER they've traded it to all the other AIs, thus lowering its value.

This experiment was done with all civs roughly equal in tech, power, and treasury.

I can see the gameplay point of it, but I really have to think there must have been a better way to go about it.

 

[Bamspeedy]

Bam - can't access that pic, why don't you just post it here?

See my edited comments above. Here's a file of the pic:

edit:now the stupid file isn't attached
Time for me to go to bed, this is annoying!

 

[Hurricane]

An example of the trading working both ways. Here I was able to buy Theory of Gravity from the French for 1 gold! And they were Furios with me (I hade just ended a war with them). Newton´s was built, so it was more or less a worthless tech. Note that I was researching democracy, so the cheap price was not because I would have discovered it soon anyway.

They wouldn´t sell me Democracy or Magnetism for any price, so it seems they value techs that lead to a new era very high. But all the AI civs had them, of course.

 

[Hurricane]

Here I sold Iron to the Indians for a substantial amount, including 15 gold per turn.

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

Originally posted by Hurricane
Here I sold Iron to the Indians for a substantial amount, including 15 gold per turn.

OK, from the indians who don`t need iron for Elephants 15 gpt isn`t sooo bad... But remember: you give them Pikemen! So I`d never take that deal!

beamup: You`re so right! Just what I found, even in games where I tried to be real nice to them!

 

[Hurricane]

I continued my game last night, and after a madman rush trough the industrial era, I really think Firaxis should do something about the trading in a new patch. Let me explain.

I play on a huge map with 16 civs (deity). One (the Chinese) has been removed from the planet, and 3 are very weak (England, Indians and Egypt). These 3 always have 0 gold and are far behind in tech. The 11 other civs are about 2-3 techs ahead of me.

At the end of the Medieval era I finished the Chinese, and decided it was time for a bit of building. I switched to Democracy. With 60% on science I made about 200 g/turn and new discoveries every 4-6 turns. Since the 11 other civs always had the tech I was researching, this of course reduced the needed beakers a lot. Techs that noone had would take about 15-20 turns, and because the AI would discover them before me anyway, I didn´t even try to research these.

Almost every round I tried talking with the other civs and buy the techs from them. SInce 11 already knew the tech, you would believe they´d sell it to me. Wrong. No matter how much I offered, they would reject the offer. France even gave me 80 g/turn for Iron, but were insulted if I instead wanted Atomic Theory.

However, as soon as I was 2 or 3 rounds from discovering the tech, they would sell it to me for about 300 lump sum gold. This routine continued all through the Industrious era - I would research a tech 3-4 rounds, buy it from another civ, notice that they now were even more ahead of me, research 3 rounds, buy, notice they now were even more ahead, and so on.

The AI entered the modern age in about 1280 AD, and are now starting to show up with tanks.

I don´t know if the game is more playable on lower difficulties, but this is just plain ridiculous. The 11 AI players have teamed up against me, and because they all research different parts of the tech tree, they all get new techs every 2 or 3 turns. Since they happilty trade techs with each other, but not with me, I will fall behind even if I discover new techs at max speed, every 4 rounds.

Firaxis, please fix or do something!

 

[Windwalker]

Originally posted by Hurricane
I continued my game last night, and after a madman rush trough the industrial era, I really think Firaxis should do something about the trading in a new patch. Let me explain.

I play on a huge map with 16 civs (deity). One (the Chinese) has been removed from the planet, and 3 are very weak (England, Indians and Egypt). These 3 always have 0 gold and are far behind in tech. The 11 other civs are about 2-3 techs ahead of me.

At the end of the Medieval era I finished the Chinese, and decided it was time for a bit of building. I switched to Democracy. With 60% on science I made about 200 g/turn and new discoveries every 4-6 turns. Since the 11 other civs always had the tech I was researching, this of course reduced the needed beakers a lot. Techs that noone had would take about 15-20 turns, and because the AI would discover them before me anyway, I didn´t even try to research these.

Almost every round I tried talking with the other civs and buy the techs from them. SInce 11 already knew the tech, you would believe they´d sell it to me. Wrong. No matter how much I offered, they would reject the offer. France even gave me 80 g/turn for Iron, but were insulted if I instead wanted Atomic Theory.

However, as soon as I was 2 or 3 rounds from discovering the tech, they would sell it to me for about 300 lump sum gold. This routine continued all through the Industrious era - I would research a tech 3-4 rounds, buy it from another civ, notice that they now were even more ahead of me, research 3 rounds, buy, notice they now were even more ahead, and so on.

The AI entered the modern age in about 1280 AD, and are now starting to show up with tanks.

I don´t know if the game is more playable on lower difficulties, but this is just plain ridiculous. The 11 AI players have teamed up against me, and because they all research different parts of the tech tree, they all get new techs every 2 or 3 turns. Since they happilty trade techs with each other, but not with me, I will fall behind even if I discover new techs at max speed, every 4 rounds.

Firaxis, please fix or do something!

Well, you're playing Diety, what do you expect? The AI cheats from Monarch on up, because that's the only way they can compete. I don't think the AI really trades to screw the player, but they do calculate the research cost for the trading partner. Because the research cost for the player is so much higher on Diety than it is for the AI, that means you must spend a lot more than the AI...

So, if Diety's too hard for you, move down... I don't claim to be able to beat anything higher than Monarch, and even on Monarch I regularly get my butt handed to me on a plate. But that's cool, because I tend to mop up on Regent, which is the only "fair" difficulty level. If the AI is still trading unfairly on Regent or below, then you know something is wrong, and then you can complain to firaxis... But if Diety is too hard, then move down!

- Windwalker

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

Originally posted by Windwalker


Well, you're playing Diety, what do you expect? The AI cheats from Monarch on up, because that's the only way they can compete. I don't think the AI really trades to screw the player, but they do calculate the research cost for the trading partner. Because the research cost for the player is so much higher on Diety than it is for the AI, that means you must spend a lot more than the AI...

So, if Diety's too hard for you, move down... I don't claim to be able to beat anything higher than Monarch, and even on Monarch I regularly get my butt handed to me on a plate. But that's cool, because I tend to mop up on Regent, which is the only "fair" difficulty level. If the AI is still trading unfairly on Regent or below, then you know something is wrong, and then you can complain to firaxis... But if Diety is too hard, then move down!

- Windwalker

have you ever read what Firaxis claims is the AI bonus on higher levels??? This definately isn`t what was promised..... Hurricane is quite right - something needs to be done! The way it is now the game gets very frustrating for newbies, since going up 1 level now means doing thing completely different. I for example rock on Monarch, but absolutely suck on Emperor if I don`t use exploits.....

 

[Hurricane]

Originally posted by Windwalker
I don't think the AI really trades to screw the player, but they do calculate the research cost for the trading partner. Because the research cost for the player is so much higher on Diety than it is for the AI, that means you must spend a lot more than the AI...

So, if Diety's too hard for you, move down...

It´s not the fact that Deity is hard, it should give you a challenge. It did that in v1.16, but in v1.17 it´s not fun anymore. After the early wars everybody rushes like madmen for modern armor, and when we reach that stage (beginning of 1300´s) I will take over the world because the AI has no clue of how to defend against modern armor. I will win the game, but it will not feel like I did something good, and it´s not exactly fun in the long run, either.

It might be that the AI does not deliberately screw the player, but the rules make it so. Look at my example above.

Turn 1) I have 1000 gold in my treasury and make 200 g/turn. I will discover Mass Transit in 4 rounds (11 other civs already know the tech). Noone will sell it to me, no matter what I offer. In other words, the AI rates the tech at a value of at least 5000 gold.

Turn 2) My income is about the same, and I now need 3 rounds to discover Mass transit. I again talk to the same civ, and now it is ready to sell me Mass transit, for 400 gold. The value of the tech dropped from 5000 to 400 in one round, even though no more civs knew it than before. WTH???

Until the late Middle Ages I was at par with the AI civs in techs. Suddenly they stop trading with me, but keep on trading with each other. If the AI treated the human player equally, it would also contact the human player when it has a new tech to sell. I don´t care if it asks for double the price of what it asks from the other AI´s, but the "you against everybody"-style it now uses is not what Civilization should be.

And as many have noted before me, the tech development is much too fast now. The game should not end in 1350 with a spaceship launch when there are 11 equally sized civs on an archipelago map.

 

[WUM]

That´s exactly why Firaxis should NOT change a thing.

If you rock on one level, you can start all over on another level!

That´s great, many games for the price of one...

If it were any different, i would long ago have stopped playing the civ-serie. Beating deity a copple of times. Fun goes away. Get bored.Stop playing.
But with civ3, you just try another level and have another game every time. The best thing that ever happened really..!

and if deity would be fair and easy, it would really suck. Be glad it´s not. It means you can game on for many years

 

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by Hurricane
After the early wars everybody rushes like madmen for modern armor, and when we reach that stage (beginning of 1300´s) I will take over the world because the AI has no clue of how to defend against modern armor. . . .
If the AI treated the human player equally, it would also contact the human player when it has a new tech to sell.

Let me see. Playing on the highest level, you have designs to take over the entire world with armor attacks. For some reason, no one wants to trade with you to aid you in this endeavor. Hmmm.

 

[Hurricane]

Originally posted by Zachriel


Let me see. Playing on the highest level, you have designs to take over the entire world with armor attacks. For some reason, no one wants to trade with you to aid you in this endeavor. Hmmm.

A learning AI that has intuition. Damned! I´m doomed!

Need. Ninjas. Now.

 

[Zachriel]

 

[Marzipan]

. . . humm this deal doesn't seem to unreasonable. . . and printing press is not shown . .

I sold the other incense to India for 20 gold per turn and 18 gold.

 

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by Marzipan
. . . humm this deal doesn't seem to unreasonable. . . and printing press is not shown . .


I sold the other incense to India for 20 gold per turn and 18 gold.

Take the deal! Take the deal!


What level were you on?

(PS. Marzipan, You might want to convert the graphic to .jpg as it will take up much less bandwidth.)

 

[WUM]

most important question: what did your advisor say??

 

[Marzipan]

"I think the deal will be acceptable"