Who is primarily to blame? Israel or the Palestinians.

[Squonk]

Squonk, why should the Israelis give the palestinians anything? was it not the palestinians who invaded Israel only 24 hours after its creation?

Why shouldn't they? Arabs were 95% majority of population of Palestine at the end of XIX century. Most of Jews that lived there when Israel was created were borned in Europe. Even these imigrants accounted for a third of population, and were given over a half of the territory, including the access to Red Sea, which divided Arab world in half.
Arabs acted very stupidily in Israeli question, they didn't try to convince the western powers to their rights. They thought that if they have right, they shouldn't worry about that. Still, they WERE right. Why on earth a minority of people, immigrants to a state, should have bigger right to it than a majority of autochtones?

 

[civaddict098]

what the arab empire did is irelevent. plus you are wrong. The muslims were very good to the Jews. Jewish life prospered in Cordoba while under muslim control.

 

[Squonk]

Oh, and as the Muslims went on a conquering spree through the Middle East and North Africa, they oppressed and then resettled in originally Christian, Jewish, or other people's lands.

I don't see how their claim is better than Israel's.

That is not true, You should learn history.
At that part of time, lands which today are Syria, Lebanon, part of Turkey and Egypt were mostly monophysite, a church not accepted by greek-orthodox byzantine authorities. Similarily, Iraq was nestorian christian (except for Tikrit region which was monophysite), and christians were persecuted there, though nestorian church was favoured over others. Therefore, muslim Arabs met little, or no, resistance there except for mostly greek-orthodox Palestine. Still, at the beginning the conditions of christians were good. Of course, many left lands conquered
the case of northern Africe is different, as, while torn by schisms, it had no big heretical controversies. its conquest took Muslims more times and it seems the conditions of Christians were more harsh - in result, Christianity didn't survive there but until XII century or so, while Christians still constitute a part of population of Levantine states.

 

[Sidhe]

Yeah according to the Bible, God was a pretty tough customer back then. Since then he seems to have mellowed out with prozac and counselling. Hence the New Testament.

As far as the land of milk and honey, possibly a few thousand years ago, it wasnt as desert like as it is today. Humans tend to desertify regions if they dont practice modern farming techniques.

I can't find anything clear about the climate of the land Joshua conquered, but it seems that they used aqueducts and fountains and pools to supply areas with water, much as they do today, it seems the climate in the region is remarkably similar to todays climate, but I only go this information by pouring through numerous, and sometimes somewhat biased sources. A land of milk and honey which was made possible by the hard work of the people, in other words, yeah but it wasn't easy making the land fertile, it appears they used walls and abbutments to keep the soil from eroding away as well, some locations were fertile and food was abundant, but they were very much the source of food for the whole region, and conditions appeared neither to be deficient nor excessively bountiful. In fact Israel today is pretty much how Israel was back then from what I can tell, with Geographers remarking on the consistency of climate in the region. In short it was no Garden of Eden, which is traditionally thought to lie on the fertile crescent.

 

[civaddict098]

today though i think Israelis are trying to make the land more fertile. Im pretty sure there is tons of tree planting going on, which can make desert fertile.

 

[Gogf]

If Israel was not created, no war would be necessary

So you think Israel should not exist? Despite the fact that the Palestinians have more control of Gaza under Israel now than they ever did before Israel and there are Arabs nations all around that they can go to, you still feel that there should be no Jewish state?

 

[civ2]

One thing left to say after so many pages of stupid "discussion":
With God's help, Israel and Jews will survive all new and old "Nazis" (and "Hamans" and "Amaleks" etc.) and the latter will meet the same destiny as Philistines - extinct.
The only question is how soon...
Those idiots that still can't understand that Jews ARE a chosen nation and their Father in Heaven helps them every day and every single second - well, a fool is a fool...
(EDIT: I say "they" about Jews because of a personal style of writing - I AM a Jew too. )

 

[Sidhe]

So you think Israel should not exist? Despite the fact that the Palestinians have more control of Gaza under Israel now than they ever did before Israel and there are Arabs nations all around that they can go to, you still feel that there should be no Jewish state?

There should of been a Jewish state I'm just not so sure the location was right, after all they turfed out most of the indigenous population which caused the trouble in the first place, I think that's what he was alluding to. Israel percieving a threat to there lands occupied areas such as Gaza and the West Bank in direct treaty violation, which escalated the war somewhat. I don't understand why you believe they have more control of Gaza under Israel than they ever did before Israel because a) Israel invaded this area and has yet to give it all up, to return to the original terms of the treaty and b) because at one time they owned the whole area, and Israel didn't exist? in fact before the 20th century as I mentioned before 5% of the people were Jewish.

today though i think Israelis are trying to make the land more fertile. Im pretty sure there is tons of tree planting going on, which can make desert fertile.

Modern farming techniques, creating and retaining top soil by planting trees as you said, and an investment in water transport technology and efficient use of present water make Israel far more bountiful than it was in biblical times, but the climate is still very much, arid, compared to say France which is hugely bountiful in food production.

 

[civ2]

Continuing:
There is one "small" difference between Israel and all the rest world.
The Land of Israel was given to the Jews by God FOREVER - outside any geopolitical considerations.
It's a gift that won't be taken back.
But as I said - a fool is a fool...

 

[Squonk]

So you think Israel should not exist? Despite the fact that the Palestinians have more control of Gaza under Israel now than they ever did before Israel and there are Arabs nations all around that they can go to, you still feel that there should be no Jewish state?

Creation of Israel was a gross mistake and a crime against Arab/Palestinian people. It is too late to change that, and Arabs helped themselves in this matter anyway, so I think 1967 boarders are the best sollution, except for west jerusalem, which should go to Israel.
Indeed, Palestians should be thankful to Israel
Why should Palestinians leave Palestine, again do I ask? Why should they make space for european Jews?

 

[Xenocrates]

they were on british land.

Still is a terrorist organazation.

realy? could you provide a citation?

If the point that you are making is that the Palestinians have been under many people's thumbs for a long time I agree with you. I'm talking abouut 1967, not 1948. I'm not arguing for the dispersment of the Jews or something, only a returrn to the pre-1967 borders as I think that's a fair and reasonable compromise.

From what I read, and I just checked the facts again, the land occupied by the Palestinians was governed by Jordan, Egypt and Syria between '48 and '67. Correct? there was never an official Palestinian state at any time in the 20th century. Right?

But let me ask you this question: What difference does it make? You have a house, a farm an income and then the Israelis come and demolish your house and/or divert the water away from your olive trees so you can't make any money. From the individual's point of view it's exactly the same loss.

The fact is that both sides use terrorist tactics. Israel fires rockets into civilian areas regularly. I refer you to post number 59 on this thread. It seems we've gone round in circles here!

Link for Hamas:

Mr Abbas, trying to persuade Hamas to drop its traditional refusal to accept Israel's right to exist, seized on a seven-page document written inside an Israeli prison by Palestinian political prisoners.

The prisoners represent not just Hamas, but all major factions, including Mr Abbas's own Fatah movement and Islamic Jihad.

It was debated inside high-security cells and drawn up under the eyes of prison guards during exercise periods.

In parts verbose and repetitive, the document nevertheless implies an acceptance of the right of Israel by claiming a Palestinian homeland only on land occupied by Israel in 1967 - Gaza, the West Bank and East Jerusalem.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/05/26/wmid26.xml&sSheet=/news/2006/05/26/ixnews.html

Note: the telegraph is usually very pro-Israel.

Also at the top of the article is a very interesting passage:

Signs of a breakthrough in the stand-off between the international community and Hamas emerged last night after the Islamist movement prepared to moderate its hostility towards Israel.

While weeks of negotiations will be needed to confirm the policy shift, it raised the hope of a new era in the Middle East and even a return to peace negotiations aimed at ending decades of Israeli-Palestinian bloodshed.

In other words, just a couple of weeks ago, Hamas was on the brink of a new phase in it's struggle. It seems that someone lower down the organisation didn't read the script and blew it. It's like holding George Bush responsible for every rape and murder in Iraq.

 

[Sidhe]

Continuing:
There is one "small" difference between Israel and all the rest world.
The Land of Israel was given to the Jews by God FOREVER - outside any geopolitical considerations.
It's a gift that won't be taken back.
But as I said - a fool is a fool...

We already established the Jews hold their land by divine right not Earthly politics, but thanks for sharing anyway Trouble is most people have to live in the real world of political strugle and war; I mean if only the Palestinians would just see that its theirs and promptly leave their homland in a safe an orderly manner it would all of been so simple, why can't they understand it's God's will Because to them it isn't and they dispute Moses authority on the matter anyway.

 

[civ2]

Sidhe
1. I'm not sure if the entire Palestine should belong to Israel - some might have left out.
2. If the Pals wanted their state - well they had it already!
Why did they then attack Israel?
Simple - hatred against Jews with no real reason other than anti-semitism.
3. Palestinians never had a state and I REALLY doubt that they lived there for more than 100-200 years.
I mean that the land was occupied by different countries and the migration takes place even without that.
4. Pals have where to go - only some 20-50 kms left/right/up/down the map.
Jews don't! There's no alternative for them!
Also Pals have basically nothing valuable to miss after moving - you know it also.
They would be paid and definitely helped to create their homes on a new place.
5. I can see no other reason of this conflict (starting with 1948) than pure and simple hatred for Jews from Palestinians and some other Arabs.
No real reason can be found - unless you yourself are of their type.
("You" doesn't mean anyone personally.)

 

[Sidhe]

Sidhe
1. I'm not sure if the entire Palestine should belong to Israel - some might have left out.
2. If the Pals wanted their state - well they had it already!
Why did they then attack Israel?
Simple - hatred against Jews with no real reason other than anti-semitism.
3. Palestinians never had a state and I REALLY doubt that they lived there for more than 100-200 years.
I mean that the land was occupied by different countries and the migration takes place even without that.
4. Pals have where to go - only some 20-50 kms left/right/up/down the map.
Jews don't! There's no alternative for them!
Also Pals have basically nothing valuable to miss after moving - you know it also.
They would be paid and definitely helped to create their homes on a new place.
5. I can see no other reason of this conflict (starting with 1948) than pure and simple hatred for Jews from Palestinians and some other Arabs.
No real reason can be found - unless you yourself are of their type.
("You" doesn't mean anyone personally.)

OK again your another of those who doesn't understand that armies moving into areas and murdering men women and children indiscriminately can provoke hate, that being dispossessed of your country by a small minority population and then having even that treaty broken and having more land stolen can cause a bit of a tension in the area, please can you people all go back to living in their caves now. As I said before the whole thing is just because the whole country stubbed their toe and is feeling sore, and nothing they do has reason, they just don't like you and are being irational The level of education in this subject is frightening, I think, I said all this before twice now but still people are posting one sided nonsense and claiming it all exists in a vaccuum, good grief, you should have read the thread before you decided to jump in civ2 is all I can say. Then maybe there would be some meat to your argument instead of just your opinion! Think people! try getting both sides of the story, or you have nothing to go on. Oh and your history is way off too, read the link on Palestine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine

 

[Sashie VII]

@civ2, I think you're getting a wee bit too strong on the words don't you think?

I haven't read the thread through, but I get the gist of it. All I've to say is that before Israeli stops their violence, peace is not possible. Validity of territorial claims aside, you need an unviolated peace treaty before anything else can happen.


Oh, and a piece of trivia..to Muslims, jews are a race without a nation eversince they defied the last prophet just because their pride does not allow a messenger not of their race. God has made the without a homeland for defying his will. Go figure.

 

[civ2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel/History#1948_War_of_Independence
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_Independence_of_the_State_of_Israel
In other words:
1948 05 14 - Israel has a state.
1948 05 15 - Arabs attack.
NOW WHERE WERE THE TERRIBLE OPPRESSING ISRAELI ARMIES???
Also - why "Jewish refugees" were brought to Israel whilst "Arab refugees" weren't saved by Arab countries?
Huh???
That's all folks.
(Basically I don't like wiki.)

 

[Sashie VII]

NOW WHERE WERE THE TERRIBLE OPPRESSING ISRAELI ARMIES???

I believe at that time they were know as Terrible Thieves Who Stole Our Land to the Arabs..

 

[Sidhe]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel/History#1948_War_of_Independence
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_Independence_of_the_State_of_Israel
In other words:
1948 05 14 - Israel has a state.
1948 05 15 - Arabs attack.
NOW WHERE WERE THE TERRIBLE OPPRESSING ISRAELI ARMIES???
Also - why "Jewish refugees" were brought to Israel whilst "Arab refugees" weren't saved by Arab countries?
Huh???
That's all folks.
(Basically I don't like wiki.)

Of course not accurate history troubles you so why should you like it, I tell you what stick to sites that lie outrageously about the situation, you know the comfort zone.

You just managed to ignore all the important bits about the situation, is there any point you posting if you don't want to acknowledge reality? One asks because it's difficult to make a point if you can't.

 

[Sashie VII]

You know, as much as I'm sympathetic towards the Palestinians and hate the Israeli's attacks on civilians, I do wonder where the heck would all those jews go if Israel is no more and the land is returned..

 

[Squonk]

Sidhe
1. I'm not sure if the entire Palestine should belong to Israel - some might have left out.

You're so generous

2. If the Pals wanted their state - well they had it already!
Why did they then attack Israel?

Because it was given over a half of Palestine?
Also, it were Jews that were practicing ethnic cleansing during this war

Simple - hatred against Jews with no real reason other than anti-semitism.

Are You so naive or blatant? You take over a half of someone's land and claim he has no reason to dislike this fact, and label him as antisemite?

3. Palestinians never had a state and I REALLY doubt that they lived there for more than 100-200 years.

uh, who lived there before then, my little Einstein?

I mean that the land was occupied by different countries and the migration takes place even without that.

So the land was free... And Arabs settled there 1000-1200 years AFTER they've conquered this land? Uh?

4. Pals have where to go - only some 20-50 kms left/right/up/down the map.
Jews don't! There's no alternative for them!

Jews could settle in some less inhabited place. Also, there's autonomous jewish region in Russia
Why shouldn't Arabs of Palestine identify with their homeland? The same You could say that the French could easy move all the Arabs out of Algieria, because they had other places to go...
Why should Jews have a state anyway?
Nah, I wouldn't mind a small part of Palestine for Jews, but taking first half of it, and now whole, is kind of egoistic, selfish, inhumane and stuff.

Also Pals have basically nothing valuable to miss after moving - you know it also.

What do You mean by that? Isn't sacred places of Christians and Muslims, and hometowns they've been living in for centuries, something valuable?

They would be paid and definitely helped to create their homes on a new place.

Why don't Jews settle elsewhere? I'm sure Arabs would pay them.

5. I can see no other reason of this conflict (starting with 1948) than pure and simple hatred for Jews from Palestinians and some other Arabs.
No real reason can be found - unless you yourself are of their type.
("You" doesn't mean anyone personally.)

Man, You are something. You invade a nation, take its homeland, force hundreds of thousands out, destroy their houses, kill their families, deprive them of their rights, AND You dare to claim that they have no reason to be sad but irrational hatred.