Why am I a warmongerer?

[gozpel]

I was attacked by the Arabs, killed their units, made peace and played on. Then they attack me again and I take one of their fringe cities and make peace.

So now China and Songhai think I'm a warmongerer?

China is understandable in some weird way, but Songhai? They just killed 4 CS and are romping around towards China, who just denounced me! For protecting my country? Songhai still have allied CS and not at war with the others, they denounce me too later. At the same time the Huns have made 3 war-declarations and checking diplo, noone has anything against these two real mongers, only I got the stamp of hate?

I played this last week and have no saves, but it's a frequent thing that happens to the player. On every game above Prince, they give you this stupid thing and as their neighbours can walk over City-states over and over, and where you just defend what you have and get that harsh penalty stamped on you.

This MUST be fixed in the next patch!!

I'm so tired of loving and hating CIV, I'm almost ready to let it go...

 

[Moriarte]

Taking a fringe city was also a part of 'defending of what you have' plan? Just crush them. Chase 'em, kill them all. Let them all know there will be no pardon for calling you a warmonger.

 

[Option]

It's always been like that. If you annex cities (whether they be city states or from other civs), you will be considered being a warmonger.

DoW usually don't mean a lot - they can be negative, but most of the time it actually has a neutral diplomatic status, unless you DoW after telling the other civ you were going to remove your units from their borders or break contracts, etc.

 

[Jabberwockxeno]

So, we don't know the exact way the game decides if you are a warmonger or not?

If that's the case, then I assume it's not moddable, either.

 

[BlackMoon450]

I'm a warmonger when I have a clear advantage over my opponents, and will defend myself even if I don't have that advantage...

 

[TheGreatImber]

I have given up hope of changing the AIs mind to be friendly. Instead I have decided to wear my Warmonger title with pride.

 

[gozpel]

So, we don't know the exact way the game decides if you are a warmonger or not?

If that's the case, then I assume it's not moddable, either.

This is what I meant, I haven't done anything to anyone...really, and I'm the warmonger.

The other civs seems to have no penalty at all.

Guarded civs for the rest of the game, I can live with that. But not without a clear explanation why and so on, while other civs can do what they want.

Of course I can be the warmongerer any time I want to, but I like the possibility to play as a peaceful civ, without these "unknown" negative penalties! And just defending yourself, how can that be warmongering?

 

[Callonia]

U should've denounced songhai on their 2nd war declaration. Go ahead and make songhai cry with your denunciation, it feels good.

 

[Option]

And just defending yourself, how can that be warmongering?

Annexing a city is not defending, it is conquest.

 

[gozpel]

U should've denounced songhai on their 2nd war declaration. Go ahead and make songhai cry with your denunciation, it feels good.

As I most of the times denounce Songhai, it was the Arabs that attacked me.

Songhai is my fav civ to play, probably my hate-civ to meet in a game.

But the Arabs are a clever and strong civ, if I meet them as neighbours I have to take them out early or when they get the money rolling in, I'm toast. But in this game I tried to play peacefully, which mattered nothing.

I'm the warmongerer, not the Arabs for attacking me twice. Even after China denounced me after my second defense, they become friends with Arabia?

And they're just neutral towards Songhai, who took over 4 CS within 60 turns.

It makes my mind going dimwit.

 

[Jabberwockxeno]

This is what I meant, I haven't done anything to anyone...really, and I'm the warmonger.

The other civs seems to have no penalty at all.

Guarded civs for the rest of the game, I can live with that. But not without a clear explanation why and so on, while other civs can do what they want.

Of course I can be the warmongerer any time I want to, but I like the possibility to play as a peaceful civ, without these "unknown" negative penalties! And just defending yourself, how can that be warmongering?

Well that sucks.

There's no hope of modding the system unless we know how it works.

 

[gozpel]

Annexing a city is not defending, it is conquest.

I didn't annex the city, it was a puppet and I took the city only for the outrageous demands the AI have if you want peace.

Never ever would I give my 560 gold, 3 luxes and all my horses/iron for peace.

Would you?

 

[lollibast]

A warning would be nice like "moving your unit there will trigger diplomatic penalties" "settling here..." "annexing this city..."
sometimes, as gozpel complains, you really don't know if youre doing something offensive as it might seem harmless

 

[smallfish]

I guess you could try and give back the cities after each war... but yeah sometimes too much is too much. There really should be an action-and-consequence set of modifiers so the AIs can understand who did what and assign actual responsibility accordingly, instead of blanket blaming the human for doing something in defense.

 

[Veneke]

I was attacked by the Arabs, killed their units, made peace and played on. Then they attack me again and I take one of their fringe cities and make peace.

So now China and Songhai think I'm a warmongerer?

China is understandable in some weird way, but Songhai? They just killed 4 CS and are romping around towards China, who just denounced me! For protecting my country? Songhai still have allied CS and not at war with the others, they denounce me too later. At the same time the Huns have made 3 war-declarations and checking diplo, noone has anything against these two real mongers, only I got the stamp of hate?

I played this last week and have no saves, but it's a frequent thing that happens to the player. On every game above Prince, they give you this stupid thing and as their neighbours can walk over City-states over and over, and where you just defend what you have and get that harsh penalty stamped on you.

This MUST be fixed in the next patch!!

I'm so tired of loving and hating CIV, I'm almost ready to let it go...

Just to clarify something - annexing a city does not label you a warmonger. Depending on a Civ's personality that particular game it could take anywhere from 1-3 declarations of war to be labeled a warmonger. It can also happen if you wipe a Civ out irrespective of who declared war. I've never seen the modifier appear when you have never declared an offensive war and I typically play peaceful games until the Industrial era.

In that example, China was looking to become friends with Arabia and denouncing you meant brownie points with them (Arabia doesn't like you, China tells Arabia that they don't like you either - AI partytime!). The circumstances are irrelevant, the AI is designed to act on situations that develop to further its own goals.

Songhai denouncing you meant brownie points with China, Arabia and probably some others as well. Given that they're warmongering, they need all the free goodwill they can get, the same principle applies.

The entire thing can snowball very easily and because the AI will ignore friendships if they sense an advantage the diplomacy game is a bit ridiculous. It doesn't help that you can't tell what Civs think of other Civs or know how doing X impacts on your diplomatic relations with other Civs. However, it does all makes some kind of weird, perverted, sense when you sit down and simply accept what the designers had in mind rather than wondering WTH they were thinking.

 

[gozpel]

However, it does all makes some kind of weird, perverted, sense when you sit down and simply accept what the designers had in mind rather than wondering WTH they were thinking.

That made me spit out my beer, while laughing!

I know, it's "just" a game and I better deal with it.

 

[lollibast]

That made me spit out my beer, while laughing!

I know, it's "just" a game and I better deal with.

Oh, beer time in Australia already, gods i hate it that you're always ahead of the rest of us, cheers by the way

 

[gozpel]

Oh, beer time in Australia already, gods i hate it that you're always ahead of the rest of us, cheers by the way

Hehe, we love being first at something, something that US can't beat us to.

But the backlash, when you're getting drunk, I'll tend my hangover.

And then I play on.

Trying to melt veneke's post and not getting unsettled. If what veneke says is true, we don't only have a weak, flawed, biased, stupid and so on AI, we have a bigger problem than that. The all above as said AI's even bunch together to stuff up the humans game, even if the human plays as fair as he/she can. ?

I'm having another beer and might leave the forums for tonight, as some ppl in the virtual skies are watching my every step.

 

[Veneke]

Hehe, we love being first at something, something that US can't beat us to.

But the backlash, when you're getting drunk, I'll tend my hangover.

And then I play on.

Trying to melt veneke's post and not getting unsettled. If what veneke says is true, we don't only have a weak, flawed, biased, stupid and so on AI, we have a bigger problem than that. The all above as said AI's even bunch together to stuff up the humans game, even if the human plays as fair as he/she can. ?

I'm having another beer and might leave the forums for tonight, as some ppl in the virtual skies are watching my every step.

Nothing like something cold to help the week go down!

I think it's probably fair to take what anyone says about the diplomacy AI with a grain of salt (potentially the whole shaker), simply on the grounds that the only constant that everyone can agree on is that it's not consistent. One thing I would put money on though is that the AI weights the 'You're friends with X? What a coincidence, so am I! Orgy?' approach to diplomacy very strongly. If their friend denounces you, that's it - you're worse than excrement to them - the same almost always applies to friendships and, I expect, it applies to other AIs in equal measure as well. All other commentary aside, there is a diplomacy AI and so it should, somehow, make some kind of sense.

I'm basing my understanding of the AI on my own experience and attempts to understand what the AI is doing more than anything else. The fact is that few people know how diplomacy actually works or take the time to figure it out and explain it. As far as I'm aware, there have really only been three serious attempts at it.
- MadDjinn wrote a guide to understanding diplomacy on the 2k forums, the link to which I've long since lost, but it's quite dated now at any rate. It was written shortly after CiVs release I believe, sometime between release and .332 anyway. The whole 'cascading denouncements/friendships' thing was in this.
- Bibor wrote up the AI flavour ratings, they're in the Strat&Tips section, though I don't believe it's been updated for G&K it does help explain some of the more curious developments particular Civs seem to wont to make - how highly they value City-States, for instance.
- Dexters wrote an unfinished and unpublished War Academy guide which goes through the diplomacy mechanics which is somewhat enlightening but also dated because it was written for pre-G&K (patch .332 I think). He did, however, uncover some interesting tidbits, for example; if AI Civ 1 denounces you AI Civ 2 (who hates AI Civ 1) will view you in a slightly more positive light. Quite a bit of what was found though was unclear.

 

[Jabberwockxeno]

because the AI will ignore friendships if they sense an advantage the diplomacy game is a bit ridiculous. It doesn't help that you can't tell what Civs think of other Civs or know how doing X impacts on your diplomatic relations with other Civs.

I get the feeling that fixing just those things would pretty much improve the diplomacy 200%...