Why am I the warmonger?

[Rathelm]

Getting them angry is not the same as getting them to declare war. The AI usually also hate each other, so if their relation to you has a big difference on how likely they are to declare war (I believe we don't know the exact mechanics yet), your actions to annoy them only makes you another possible war target. I've played several games where most AI are denouncing me all the time (with good reason) but nobody ever declared war.

Yes this was basically the point I was trying to make. The computer shouldn't declare war unless it thinks it can get something from it. CiV toward the end did a better job with this. Civ6 is a bit sad right now, but I'm confident someone will fix it.

 

[Karoq]

considering what has been said here, idk if what happened in my game is a bug or not. Spain DOW on me in the late game (modern era) I used a bomber stationed on my carried to drop his cities health down and drove in a tank. Cap'd yhe cite and kept it for no warmongering penalty at all.

Though most nations think I am a warmonger anyway because I nuked Indias space pad since India was going to beat me with a science Vic and I was trailing on my cultural Vic conditions.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Getting them angry is not the same as getting them to declare war. The AI usually also hate each other, so if their relation to you has a big difference on how likely they are to declare war (I believe we don't know the exact mechanics yet), your actions to annoy them only makes you another possible war target. I've played several games where most AI are denouncing me all the time (with good reason) but nobody ever declared war.

It seems arbitrary at first blush. Make them hate you then maybe they declare. I've seen posters claim egregious advantage in power in their favor and the AI still declares, so apparently it'll declare anyway. In my Teddy domination game I declared all wars after the first one. In Norway game two AI declared on me out of the first 3 I killed, one being obviously weaker.

 

[steveg700]

Getting them angry is not the same as getting them to declare war.

No, it's just a heckuva good move in that direction.

The AI usually also hate each other, so if their relation to you has a big difference on how likely they are to declare war (I believe we don't know the exact mechanics yet), your actions to annoy them only makes you another possible war target. I've played several games where most AI are denouncing me all the time (with good reason) but nobody ever declared war.

The mechanisms don't seem to be that mysterious. Appearance of Weakness can get you War and Late-Game Victory Chase can get you War, and pissing off the AI with more negative diplomacy modifiers seals the deal.

Yes this was basically the point I was trying to make. The computer shouldn't declare war unless it thinks it can get something from it. CiV toward the end did a better job with this. Civ6 is a bit sad right now, but I'm confident someone will fix it.

Now, if we want to talk about sticky issues, what can be gotten out of war (or peace, for that matter) has plagued all 4X games. It's usually a big drain on time and resources, and a diversion away from building upon existing assets for something that can be a big gamble. In both Civ V and VI, terrain is fairly ubiquitous, so there are no particularly covetable stretches of land, although the AI does want to settle on luxes (and frequently simply won't expand in their absence). On the other hand, the AI doesn't seem to place a high value on having a peaceful place to send trade routes, so peace isn't that coveted either. Add into that the dichotomy that devs know all too well: players get angry when an AI is rabidly aggressive, and disappointed when it's not aggressive enough.....Catch-22.

But if players really want war and they're not getting it, then there's a good chance they're not trying enough of the stuff I mentioned previously. Dance some units around their border, then break the promise to stop doing that. Settle near them, then break the promise not to do it again. Convert a city, then break the promise not to do that again. Spy on them, then....well, you get the idea. Do all that while keeping your military strength from getting too high. Oh, and I guess you need to avoid the lower difficulty levels, where the AI is anemic to war.

TLDR: There's a good reason for getting a warmonger hit for taking cities, even if you didn't start it. It can be gamed. Even now in VI, people game the lack of warmonger penalties to capture cities by just building a small force of archers and some token infantry, then letting the much bigger AI army come over and pick a fight because they perceive themselves as stronger. They lose their army in a failed siege, and their capital is ripe for the taking.

 

[rastak]

I did raze a few cities. Perhaps 2 or 3. You know, teach them not to poke the bear. Never occupied any city.
I think the target-of-declaration count also includes City States that get dragged in.
There were 5 times, IIRC, that 2 or more civs declared. It was always a team. India and Germany. Persia and China. England and Brazil. Sometimes a pile-on.
Never any danger. Island map. But, it kept me on my toes.

I think you tought them you are a complete scumbag. Not you personally but your nation which richly promotes war atrocities.

 

[bufferunderrun]

As Louis XXIV already said, there still is a difference. If somebody attacks you, you don't get any warmonger points at all. You can defend, you can decimate his army, but nobody will think you are a warmonger, you are just defending.
But if you turn your defence into offense, invade his territory and capture his cities, you are suddenly not any better than he is, are you?
I think it makes perfect sense the way it is (talking just about this particular thing, not the whole diplomacy in Civ6).

Depend some leaders never learn i got 3 consecutive war declarations from montezuma, he declare and attack, i clear all the incoming units, he ask for peace then when the peace protection wear off he denounce and declared again, if i had not wiped that damn bird from my continent leaving him only with oversea cities he would have pestered me the entire game.

 

[NukeAJS]

I didn't read the entire post, but if an AI gives a city to you as part of a peace deal -- no warmonger penalty.

Basically, kill most of their military and get the city you wants health significantly down. They'll almost always give you the city if you ask for it. They'll never offer it or at least I've never seen them do it.

If you are on the receiving end of the declaration, you will get zero warmonger penalty. If you declared the war, you'll just the the initial declaration penalty.

 

[elitetroops]

The mechanisms don't seem to be that mysterious. Appearance of Weakness can get you War and Late-Game Victory Chase can get you War, and pissing off the AI with more negative diplomacy modifiers seals the deal.

It's a lot more mysterious than that. I've played games where I'm super weak until I build up to 8 units for the inspiration, yet never seen a declaration. I've never ever been declared on in the late game when I'm about to win. In my last 3 games I haven't been declared on at all, despite mostly pissing off the AI quite a bit at some point. On the other hand, I played one game where I was in the Information Era while all AI were still Classical, I had 30-40 times their power rating, I had lots of positive modifiers from "favorable trades", yet several of them still declared war on me. Like TMIT said, it seems very arbitrary.

 

[Mustakrakish]

It's just lazyness on developer's part.

About OP's "teaching them a lesson not to poke a bear"... You don't need skynet or anything like that, meaning there's no need for AI to be "self learning", all you need is a few variables.
Comical oversimplification incoming:
Was there war with the player = true; did it (AI player) got their ass handed to them = true; how badly? Number of cities taken * variable X = another variable determining the desire "to poke the bear" in the future. We can even throw in another bigger multiplier for X based on razed cities... and now we have AI that won't be that willing to mess with you in the future if you freaking genocide a few cities of theirs. Still will hate you, but at least will "learn their lesson" for that game.

And about stupid agenda messages from Harald for example about the navy, when you have zero ships... How freaking hard can THAT be? If another player has 0 ships and you (harald AI) have 0-1 ships = nothing, nada. If another player have more than 1 AND more than you (harald AI) = praise, if you (harald AI) have more than 1 AND more than another player = dis them.

Simply unbelievable...

 

[JosephC]

It's precisely this attitude that would force me from the beginning to declare "Deus Vult!" and eradicate your civ from the earth.

lol, no arguments here... I do the same thing right from the start, I usually clear out a civ or two simply to make room for my Civ, but make I make sure I eradicate them so no one is complaining that I have their city. My point was, that the AI's warmongering penalties seems to provoke the right response. Basically not being cool with their cities being occupied or burnt down, and holding that grudge for a long time. It's just a shame that the AI doesn't seem to put much focus on getting the city back.

 

[Rambo919]

Anyone holding a grudge for you taking a few of his (previous) cities because HE declared a physically unprovoked war on you is a fool. Any third party doing it is a moron. There should be no penalties for the non agressor, and no being agressive after the fact does not matter. Raising cities though should have it's own warmongering penalty unless it's one that was settled RIGHT at your border to provoke you in the first place... The current state of the AI is such that you are pretty much forced into war one way or another, this is bad enough already but the AI in effect seems to be a petulent child poking you all the time for fun but with no clue whatsoever how to actually beat you when you get mad. I have had a 50 turn surprise war in which I was declared war apon but the enemy simply never bothered to pitch. Another time the spoiled little princess calling herself Cleopatra kept insulting me and then decalring war because my army was so small.... I used a single legionare and 3 scouts to in one smooth motion take out her entire empire of 5 cities in one smooth motion with her "grand arme" of warriors & bowman simply disintigrating at first contact.... this excuse of an AI is quite frankly a waste of my time and I'm not even that good.

TBH though the way Victoria once prissily declared a unprovoked war on me as if the breakup was all my fault and she was trying to stop it for years now was funny, felt like a dumstruck man getting a sudden devorce he never saw coming.

 

[ColPaladin]

Yes, in my current game, I was DOW by two civs, calling me a warmonger. I never started a war; never took a city; let alone razed a city. I was trying to win using culture, and being peaceful and defensive. Still did not work, and all but one civ hates me (and all hate each other).

 

[bladex]

edit your eras.xml file and change warmongerpoints= to whatever you want. set it to 0 for true WM game

 

[Kolyana]

The AI is pretty sensitive, but if you didnt declare wars then it seems you must have razed or captured (and kept, without having them be ceded to you in peace deals?) cities.

And there is a the crux of the problem

1. Razing cities is a killer, much worse than taking them
2. You cannot teach them, they are an AI... it in fact does the opposite and makes them declare you a warmonger.

The OP is correct though, the Warmonger penalty is arbitrary and broken. I have two examples that completed negate the quote text:

1) England declares war on me. The war doesn't leave my land. I kill 2-3 of the english units. No cities trade hands. No discussions for peace have taken place yet. India calls me the warmonger.

2) Gilgamesh asks me for an alliance. I agree. Same turn (for Gilgamesh) he declares war on India, thus dragging me into it aswell. The entire world ends up calling me a warmonger IMMEDIATELY for the war I didn't start. INCLUDING GILGAMESH. Explain that one. We're in an alliance, he starts the war, and immediately says I'm the warmonger. I haven't even moved a unit in anger yet.

This is a broken aspect to the game. Period.

 

[Photi]

I've noticed that Civ VI right now is a lot like Civ V was on release: cliques may form early on, but by about 100 turns in everybody hates everybody else and it never recovers.

not true:

 

[bladex]

how the hell did you manage that? i've had maybe one AI like me but the rest hate you no matter what you do? they will hate you for having a different gov than them FFS!

 

[Victoria]

We're in an alliance, he starts the war, and immediately says I'm the warmonger. I haven't even moved a unit in anger yet. This is a broken aspect to the game. Period.

I 100% agree that your allly should not call you a warmonger amd that is something they need to fix.

However your real problem is to avoid befriending people, especially Gilgamesh. Gilgamesh hates everyone, you become friends with Hitler and no-one is going to appreciate your fine dinner manners. Not only befriend but ally? Oh cmon.... You can see when you talk to him that everyone else hates him.

Having a formal allied war can reduce warmonger a fair amount.

It is broken in more than just that 1 way but it is not as broken that you cannot play it, and play it well. Its just diplomacy and war are like sausages and icing.

 

[Victoria]

Its not as hard as you think, harder to get all of them like that if not France without exploits but possible. You may have to make small sacrifices and you definately have to be worse off in deals

 

[GhostSalsa]

With that combination of AI agendas and the snowflake map, it's possible as long as you have parity on city count and army. Replace one with Germany or China and I don't think it would look as minty up there...

 

[Photi]

With that combination of AI agendas and the snowflake map, it's possible as long as you have parity on city count and army. Replace one with Germany or China and I don't think it would look as minty up there...

it wasn't many turns after this that i got the culture victory, but just before i was about to win Kongo and Rome declared on me despite our alliances. The Rome DOW happened at the unit and map level, but the diplomacy screen and leaderhead up in the corner still showed us as in an alliance. it made it impossible to make peace, because the diplomacy game thought we were at peace.