Why am I too stupid to understand corporations?

[sneaky]

First rule of corporations
They are not a dumb no brainer like religions
Second rule of corporations
They are not a dumb no brainer like religions.
Third rule of corporations
Don't spread it to all your cities, but only selected ones. For example to kickstart new founded across the sea. Or on your borders, the culture bonus is a big one! Settle Mining Corp in your Heroic Epic and Ironworks production cities. The beaker generating Corp in your Science Cities.

Corporations are not broken. It seems to me, there was much fine tuning involved. Yes, it cost money. But in the late game I have enough and the boni are very complementary. For exampe Mining Corp comes with railroads and around the time you built levees and factorys. The food Corps come with Techs which give you lots of health. The culture ones with mass media.

Let me give this a try:

First rule of Corporations
Spreading Corporations is not a no-brainer like religions
Second rule of Corporations
Spreading Corporations is not a no-brainer like religions
Third rule of Corporations
Spread Corporations strategically.
Don't spread them to all your cities and don't spread them to any or all foreign cities. Only spread them if they benefit the city in question and if your economy can handle it.
Fourth rule of Corporations
Corporations are costly, expect to lose money.
Don't spread Corporation to get rich, spread them to benefit from the bonuses. Expect your economy to suffer if you can't use the benefits from the Corporation to win quickly enough.

 

[homan1983]

Jaca I had the same experiences, but the problem is that suddenly towards 2000AD inflation becomes killer. And when one of my corporate hosts switched to SP I had to drop science from 50% to 20%.

If this is the case then there is no point playing as free market, why should I have to put up with all this when I can just go SP/CS and get 4 on every tile and use specialists or cottage cities for science, and basically get tanks out in 2 turns in all my cities taking over the world.

 

[sneaky]

Jaca I had the same experiences, but the problem is that suddenly towards 2000AD inflation becomes killer. And when one of my corporate hosts switched to SP I had to drop science from 50% to 20%.

If this is the case then there is no point playing as free market, why should I have to put up with all this when I can just go SP/CS and get 4 on every tile and use specialists or cottage cities for science, and basically get tanks out in 2 turns in all my cities taking over the world.

I admit that when you are planning to take over the world, you are better to stay in State Property and ignore Corporations. Corporations seem to be more aimed at Space Race and Cultural Victories, as far as I can tell.

 

[Chigau Jiji]

I think that corporations are a good idea,
and the real problem is that it's difficult to work out how much
they are actually costing you for their benefits.
Their real cost is hidden from any player
who, like me, had never even noticed the inflation factor before.
If someone said the corporation costs 15-20gpt,
you get back 15gpt, and you get the bonuses, great.
That's the info you get from city screens.

But inflation of 100-200% and more means
that in reality the corporations are very, very expensive, no matter how rich you are late game,
you maybe just don't realise it.
If someone said the corporation costs 45-60gpt per city
and you get back 15gpt and bonuses,
then you might not bother with them.

 

[Random Oracle]

Besides, the inflation is tied to years, not era or techs. You can have corporations in 1700-1800 if you play well.

This is a good point. I think many people posting comments about affordable upkeep prices probably didn't play until the late game. I don't think finishing early in terms of game year is always a question of good play though as the overall tech rate depends on many things such as whether tech trading is allowed or not. Should the corporations be less useful if the tech rate is slower?

The cost of everything goes up greatly during the modern era due to inflation. This is to offset all the powerful gold producing infrastructure you have place in your huge empire by then. Consequently, corporations take a heavy hit as well.

The issue is that corporations take a disproportionate hit as their already large maintentance costs can be more than tripled.

But the idea that corporations become less lucrative as time goes on makes sense because the player's economy grows massively in the modern times. Otherwise it would just be a self-feeding mechanism where once you found a corp and spam it in all your cities, you always get richer and richer. That IMO would make the corps truly OP and broken.

Some sort of maintenance is obviously required for corporations and I don't think anyone arguing here has an issue with their base cost. The issue is the combination of that maintenance with inflation and the fact that a player hosting corporations loses hugely more money to inflation than someone in say State Property.

 

[fluffhead]

by the end of the game (2000ad) you don't need your science rate cranking at 80% or so because the is not much left to research. Having to drop it down to 20% to pay for inflation sholdn't be that devastating at that point.

 

[homan1983]

I admit that when you are planning to take over the world, you are better to stay in State Property and ignore Corporations. Corporations seem to be more aimed at Space Race and Cultural Victories, as far as I can tell.

No, with the current corporation model, regardless of victory type and your civ type its best to adopt it in the late game (which isnt very far off from when you found corporations)

by the end of the game (2000ad) you don't need your science rate cranking at 80% or so because the is not much left to research. Having to drop it down to 20% to pay for inflation sholdn't be that devastating at that point.

Irrelevant, the problem is that inflation is making corporations cost 3.5x as much as before for providing the same benefit - hence corporations are no longer AT ALL cost effective.

 

[Random Oracle]

by the end of the game (2000ad) you don't need your science rate cranking at 80% or so because the is not much left to research. Having to drop it down to 20% to pay for inflation sholdn't be that devastating at that point.

You could very well need to research the last few techs in order to launch the space ship so a drop in tech rate could be fatal. Alternatively, all that gold could be put into much better use like upgrading/rush buying troops. Unless the benefits you get from Corporations are worth their maintenance and inflation, someone else running State Property is always going to be in a better position in comparison.

 

[Ralgar]

Spoken truely like someone who thinks theory = practice. Your notion that "yes I have enough money in the late game" is so innocent that when you realize what you're actually talking baout you'll kick yourself.

If you spread 3 corporations in two dozen cities ---> 2000 Inflation cost around 2000 AD. I did this mistake myself in my first BTS game. Maybe as Karl the Great with Rathäuser or Shake you can make it. But if you only spread selectively, e.g. only five Mining Corp, the total cost even in huge cities with much used resources is only around 200 Gold. (5 x 16 Gold x 200% Inflation minus 5 x 15 Gold HQ). When new Techs need thousands of beakers to research this will hinder you not much. But you get in 5 cities a hefty production boost.

Yes, it is a tradeoff and you have to guess if it is worth it. In my second game i thought "to hell with corps!" and just played with state property. Less complicated. But I think Corps have their uses .

P.S.
I play on monarch or emperor. Never tried immortal or deity.

 

[Indiansmoke]

They are currently broken. You can exploit this and spread them to foriegn countries, but whatever you do, do not build them in your own cities. Unless you want to be paying around 2000 Gold per turn on Inflation.

Not true at all. At the time the come you have plenty of money to afford 8-10 gold per turn, because that is how much each branch maintenace costs, provided that you have courthouse where you build them.

Now the benefits are massive! You could get Alluminium if you don't find it, you can get + 7-8 raw hammers per city, culture, food and it goes on.

Spread them in the cities you need them and use them offensivelly against your opponents. For example spreading a corporation that provides culture in an oponnent that is on a different continent makes them pay alot of money for maintenance for essentially nothing in return while you get a good income.

 

[homan1983]

Pot, kettle, and all that.

The screenshot shows that the game only has 77 turns left. If that isn't the end game then I don't know what is.

And? Corps can only be found in the modern age which is the end game already.

The cost of everything goes up greatly during the modern era due to inflation. This is to offset all the powerful gold producing infrastructure you have place in your huge empire by then. Consequently, corporations take a heavy hit as well.

Beyond BankMarketGrocer and maxed out cottages, an economy will no longer improve. In any case you are arguing about inflation in the game, I am saying that inflation shouldnt affect corporation because it means that the cost of the benefits they provide change significantly throughout the game (upto triple or more).

I don't understand why its human nature to argue for arguments sake. Clearly this is a broken mechanic, why are people stating - and usually those who haven't played the game or who enjoy doing a quick victory with a huge empire (hence haven't actually gotten to experience what inflation is like) - that the current inflation model on corporation is fine?

 

[homan1983]

If you spread 3 corporations in two dozen cities ---> 2000 Inflation cost around 2000 AD. I did this mistake myself in my first BTS game. Maybe as Karl the Great with Rathäuser or Shake you can make it. But if you only spread selectively, e.g. only five Mining Corp, the total cost even in huge cities with much used resources is only around 200 Gold. (5 x 16 Gold x 200% Inflation minus 5 x 15 Gold HQ). When new Techs need thousands of beakers to research this will hinder you not much. But you get in 5 cities a hefty production boost.

Yes, it is a tradeoff and you have to guess if it is worth it. In my second game i thought "to hell with corps!" and just played with state property. Less complicated. But I think Corps have their uses .

P.S.
I play on monarch or emperor. Never tried immortal or deity.

But it shouldn't be like that.
Because its competing economy: the SP/CS now gives cities ~+10 each. Further more you lose the distance to capital penalty and finally you get to stop others from profiting with corporations on you.

I agree that some corporations should be used very selectively. But considering that it takes a lot of effort to try and accumulate the resources required for the corporations, I think its reasonable to assume that given a civ running huge cottages for lots of that they can run the + corporation in those cities at a reasonable cost (no 100 isnt reasonable).

 

[Random Oracle]

I can see the Corporations being useful under the current system in a few ways:

1) You use them as weapons against other civs late in the game when the inflation costs are high. If the other civs are using this tactic against you, you pretty much have to be in Mercantilism yourself and hope the other civs don't run Mercantilism or State Property.

2) You only spread the corporations to other civs so that you don't have to pay the maintenance but get the 15 /turn in your Wall Street city.

3) You use them in the late game with high inflation but only in a very limited number of cities where benefits are still worth the costs.

4) You get corporations early in terms of game years when inflation is still relatively low. You can use them wherever you need them and hopefully win before the costs get too high because of inflation.

5) You use corporations for a while to get their benefits (like growing cities with the extra food) and then switch to State Property to cut the costs.

While you can certainly get use out of corporations, I feel their role will be smaller under the current system than intended. Furthermore, players playing until the late years will get a lot less use out of corporations which doesn't really make sense.

 

[homan1983]

First rule of corporations
They are not a dumb no brainer like religions

Ill thought out and a 1 liner - no basis is provided

First rule of corporations
Second rule of corporations
They are not a dumb no brainer like religions.

Ill thought out and a 1 liner - no basis is provided

First rule of corporations
Third rule of corporations
Don't spread it to all your cities, but only selected ones. For example to kickstart new founded across the sea. Or on your borders, the culture bonus is a big one! Settle Mining Corp in your Heroic Epic and Ironworks production cities. The beaker generating Corp in your Science Cities.

Ill thought out and a 1 liner - no basis is provided

Its clear you have no idea what the current mechanics is or you can't seem to comprehend the problem of inflation exponentially increasing the cost of the same corporation as time goes on.

 

[eric_]

Homan, I still have the sense that you're thinking of corporations as something that one should spread to ALL domestic cities, and I don't understand why. It's obvious to me why they would be an economic drag in that instance. As such, why do it?

Likewise, it would seem that you don't want to run a foreign economy in to the ground by spamming it with your corps. If you do that, they'll ultimately cease to gain a benefit and will switch to SP/CS, which at the least will put a dent in your profit. If you've gone *real* crazy, it could completely cripple you. So, it would seem that they should be spread very selectively. In domestic situations, ONLY give them to cities that can *really* put their benefit to use.

In foreign situations, spread them only to the extent that the target civ isn't him/herself crippled, and make sure they don't have the resource that the corp provides, thus providing an incentive for them to stay on board. Obviously this will take some planning and a bit of guess work as to the strength of their economy.

 

[azaris]

5b) You combine corporations with Spiritual or Cristo Redentor to switch between Free Market and State Property constantly. When you have extra money, run FM for a while for growth/culture/production, then go back to SP to make money. Lather, rinse, repeat.

6) You spread corps conservatively to friendly civs and vassals, making sure that they won't be suffocated under the upkeep.

 

[homan1983]

I can see the Corporations being useful under the current system in a few ways:

1) You use them as weapons against other civs late in the game when the inflation costs are high. If the other civs are using this tactic against you, you pretty much have to be in Mercantilism yourself and hope the other civs don't run Mercantilism or State Property.

2) You only spread the corporations to other civs so that you don't have to pay the maintenance but get the 15 /turn in your Wall Street city.

3) You use them in the late game with high inflation but only in a very limited number of cities where benefits are still worth the costs.

4) You get corporations early in terms of game years when inflation is still relatively low. You can use them wherever you need them and hopefully win before the costs get too high because of inflation.

5) You use corporations for a while to get their benefits (like growing cities with the extra food) and then switch to State Property to cut the costs.

While you can certainly get use out of corporations, I feel their role will be smaller under the current system than intended. Furthermore, players playing until the late years will get a lot less use out of corporations which doesn't really make sense.

Whilst you can get corporations earlier in the game, it will only happen if you've done some serious conquering and hence the game is already over so its no point discussing such a scenario - not everyone wants to own 50% of the map.

This couldn't possibly have been intended as a weapon against other civs directly - more a way to enrich yourself like religions in some aspect.

Why would they add espionage and corporations if both were peaceful weapons?
And why would the AI spread the corporation to his own cities if its a weapon?
Why does corporation need a government thats friendly to you and with which you have open borders?
And if it was a weapon, why would they make it so powerful that with inflation it would make the "enemy" run at 100% tax and still lose money? Thats more powerful than we can dream of.


I put it to you that corporation is a way for smaller yet more trade-prone and rich cities (kind of like I played that Dutch game) to still be competitive. So that larger is not always better.

If you can afford enough resources to make the corporation provide a significant benefit and you have the economy to pay for it then good on you, if you don't have enough resources to get a huge benefit then perhaps its best to go either mercantilism or SP/CS which would give like +8-10 per city which is still good, although not as good as you could potentially get out of corporations.


What it is NOT is what some other posters are suggesting which is:

"mindlessly spam corporation to all foreign targets but only run a few at home and destroy everyone's economy to the point where they need to run 100% taxes"

It sounds like a plan someone came up with who had a deadline that would end in 2 minutes.

 

[Random Oracle]

I'd argue that corporations were not intended to be very limited in their effect. It was advertised that you now have more reason to gather multiple resources and that State Property is getting a nerf because it doesn't allow for corporations. Why else would a previously dominant civic get a further boost?

Besides, you have to use a great person to found a corporation and be the first to do so. If you can't expect benefits that outweigh the costs you'd better save that GP for another golden age which are now much better.

Finally, why make it so that players reaching corporations in the 1700s can make much better use of them than players founding them in the 1900s? Inflation being tied to game years makes the whole system out of whack.

 

[sneaky]

Ill thought out and a 1 liner - no basis is provided

Its clear you have no idea what the current mechanics is or you can't seem to comprehend the problem of inflation exponentially increasing the cost of the same corporation as time goes on.

Christ sake.

Not, you homan are the only one, who is typing ill thought out one liners. You don't provide any basis for you assumptions other than a screen shot of a game where you put god knows how many corporations in all your cities.
What I said in that post is thought over and experienced in game and backed up by the opinions of most people in this thread. We all get that inflation is killing we all get that it is heavy on the economy. It's obvious that you can't spread them to ALL you cities. This is also something Solver agreed. You most be selective and you most be careful. And you most be aware that eventually even if you are careful and selective you will still lose money. This is not ill though out, this is not an one liner. This is fact. Just becomes you don't like the fact that you can't spread corporations to all your cities, doesn't make the system broken.

 

[Random Oracle]

Whilst you can get corporations earlier in the game, it will only happen if you've done some serious conquering and hence the game is already over so its no point discussing such a scenario - not everyone wants to own 50% of the map.

I could found Mining Inc. in my current game at 1500 AD and I've only fought one early war. My land area might be the biggest, but just barely. The point is, in certain games it is possible to reach the corporations at a stage when the inflation is low, such as when you have everyone teching fast and trading techs.

This couldn't possibly have been intended as a weapon against other civs directly - more a way to enrich yourself like religions in some aspect.

Why would they add espionage and corporations if both were peaceful weapons?
And why would the AI spread the corporation to his own cities if its a weapon?
Why does corporation need a government thats friendly to you and with which you have open borders?
And if it was a weapon, why would they make it so powerful that with inflation it would make the "enemy" run at 100% tax and still lose money? Thats more powerful than we can dream of.

I agree with you. I think corporations can currently be used as a weapon but that was not Firaxis' real intention for them. Besides, why design a weapon that can be countered completely by switching to Mercantilism or State Property?

I put it to you that corporation is a way for smaller yet more trade-prone and rich cities (kind of like I played that Dutch game) to still be competitive. So that larger is not always better.

If you can afford enough resources to make the corporation provide a significant benefit and you have the economy to pay for it then good on you, if you don't have enough resources to get a huge benefit then perhaps its best to go either mercantilism or SP/CS which would give like +8-10 per city which is still good, although not as good as you could potentially get out of corporations.

I agree, this is what corporations should be. I'm fairly certain that is was intended that corporations can be useful to you at times even when you don't control the headquarters.