Why am I too stupid to understand corporations?

[homan1983]

Homan, I still have the sense that you're thinking of corporations as something that one should spread to ALL domestic cities, and I don't understand why.

No I don't think that.

In my first ethiopia game I played, I founded mining corp and sushi corp and I spread it to some cities and a lot of foreign ones.
In that game I had a few cottage tiles, a few workshops and some farms and it was more of a military game.

In the 2nd game I played as dutch. I set up a huge economy where most of the tiles were developed as fully grown cottages with the farms/workshops there just to support the cottages.
I expanded my economy greatly and ran a LOT of foreign trade routes.

In this game most of my cities were rich as such, I could afford the extra maintenance that "creative construction" and "sid sushi" provided in most of the cities, and build aluminium corp in about 2-3 cities.

Then came 3 problems:
- as the game went on, the price of the corps suddenly started to go up massively even though the bonus was the same
- I captured one of my neighbours and suddenly I had to pay the maintenance for the corps I ran there and lost one source of the corporation income I had.
- the egyptians, a major source of corporation income went SP/CS

Then things suddenly changed and things went from 50% science to 10-20%.

In any case, I am not saying that corporations should be cheap, nor am I saying they should be expensive: merely that their cost should be known and fixed so that we can plan.

After all any idiot can make a corp and spam it in the neighbours without worrying about the consequences - and if the mechanic is broken they'll never know simply because its the other country paying for it, but to make a good long-term strategic plan we require some sort of stability in terms of price.
Imagine if you built 10 units and paid 10, then suddenly in 20 turns time each one was costing you 5 so you ended up paying 50... thats how corporation is with inflation calculated atm.

 

[homan1983]

Christ sake.
Not, you homan are the only one, who is typing ill thought out one liners.

I haven't just provided screenshots - which in itself is more than what some posters have done.

I have explained many times and using many different and valid reasons, but some people still argue for arguments sake. Its a waste of time - all that matters is the the designers understand the current problem.

If you can't see that in all my posts I tried to explain what corporation was meant to be and what is actually is, and the problems with inflation applying to corporation then why do you even both replying?

I'm sick of people who have no experience or simply have not played the game typing:

"you've just played it wrong", thats a poor excuse for an argument.

The only point someone made was: "perhaps corporations were meant to be used as a weapon to destroy others and for you to get rich quick" but I already gave many reasons as to why I think thats not the case.

So from now on if someone makes a downright stupid 1-line comment I'm gonna call it out for what it is - no point arguing with someone who reads one line or looks at 1 screenshot and thinks they understand everything about everything and know that i simply "played wrong"

"Any fool can criticize, condemn, and complain - and most fools do."

 

[Random Oracle]

In any case, I am not saying that corporations should be cheap, nor am I saying they should be expensive: merely that their cost should be known and fixed so that we can plan.

This is one of the main problems with this issue and I'd add this:

-The cost of the corporations should be comparable in different games with different tech speeds.

Imagine if you built 10 units and paid 10, then suddenly in 20 turns time each one was costing you 5 so you ended up paying 50... thats how corporation is with inflation calculated atm.

Actually, I thought the support costs increase with inflation as well. However, the drawback of building units is not really the support costs, but the cost in hammers and that does not increase. The drawback of corporations is the maintenance, and that does indeed increase dramatically.

 

[homan1983]

Actually, I thought the support costs increase with inflation as well. However, the drawback of building units is not really the support costs, but the cost in hammers and that does not increase. The drawback of corporations is the maintenance, and that does indeed increase dramatically.

They do increase, but unfortunately they would increase from 50 to like 150. Corporation goes from 700 to 2100.

Inflation currently outstrips the growth of the economies at the end but its not very obvious without corporations because paying an extra 100 can be absorbed in a big economy without people even noticing a difference in their income.

However paying an extra 1500 due to inflation on corporations becomes VERY noticeable because the income of a person isn't growing at the same rate as inflation (which it does at the start of the game - but then at some point when markets and banks are built and cottages are fully developed the potential economy gets capped yet inflation keeps going up and up).

 

[eric_]

I'm fairly certain that is was intended that corporations can be useful to you at times even when you don't control the headquarters.

They do...they can get, say, oil even if they don't have it in their territory. It's probably a bad idea to spread Standard Ethanol to a civ that has oil, as they won't have a reason to keep their markets open if it becomes even a slight drag on their economy.

And, I'm baffled that people think the "weapon" aspect of corps was unintentional. Why would the developers avoid that? The more people discuss this, the more obvious it becomes that corps are extremely dynamic and must be used very carefully. Sounds perfect. I can't wait to try them!

Anyway, fair enough that you're sick of people (like me) who haven't yet played it, but comment anyway. I will definitely see for myself. But, based on your posts, the only thing I can deduce that might be broken is perhaps the way in which inflation is applied to corporation maintenance. Otherwise, it sounds like you just have to be very careful. For instance, it's intriguing to me that conquering a civ with your corps amounts to shooting yourself in the foot...that doesn't sound broken, it sounds like...a more dynamic game.

 

[eric_]

However paying an extra 1500 due to inflation on corporations becomes VERY noticeable because the income of a person isn't growing at the same rate as inflation (which it does at the start of the game - but then at some point when markets and banks are built and cottages are fully developed the potential economy gets capped yet inflation keeps going up and up).

Now, that's perhaps something that should be addressed. I can see that. Maybe a "central bank" shouldn't be an event, but rather a national wonder, and certain techs increase its ability to regulate inflation...

 

[wayne07]

I find it so amusing that people doesn't think AI will spam your cities with corporations under Free Market. Its either they didn't play the game until the late stages or they didn't play BTS at all.

Unless it is the intention of firaxis to force you to choose one particular civic to compete with the AI in late game (in this case - state property), then i will think this is an issue that need to be addressed.

 

[eoghammer]

one simple solution is to multiply the effect of the corporation by the inflation... (for the HQ and any corp enclave)... the maintenance will raise but the effect will raise also... and the corporation will be improved as the time will advance.

 

[Random Oracle]

And, I'm baffled that people think the "weapon" aspect of corps was unintentional. Why would the developers avoid that? The more people discuss this, the more obvious it becomes that corps are extremely dynamic and must be used very carefully. Sounds perfect. I can't wait to try them!

I don't think it was intended as a main use for Corporations. Solver at least didn't think so:

http://civilization4.net/3/263/480/

If you have a lot of money, you can try to increase the maintenance of a rival. Use your Executives to spread corporations to a rival’s city - you will get increased headquarters income, whereas the other civ will not be facing increased maintenance. It’s rarely worth it, given the costs of spreading a corporation, but it can be fun sometimes. This is something I’ve actually had the AI do to me – Ramesses had spread his corporation to all cities on a small secondary continent of mine. The cities weren’t good enough to benefit much from the corporation, however, my maintenance costs did skyrocket and I was forced to adopt Mercantilism in the end.

But, based on your posts, the only thing I can deduce that might be broken is perhaps the way in which inflation is applied to corporation maintenance.

Which is pretty much the whole point I (and probably homan1983) have been trying to make!

I have no problem with the base maintenance cost, in fact it is most probably necessary to prevent the founder of a Corporation to get a disproportionate advantage.

 

[sneaky]

I expect that if Corporations did not have a cost depending on the number of resources used and did not have a maintenance that would go up in time, they would have been broken too easily. Players could found them early and acquire enough resources to reach a point where they always break even and continue to spread them everywhere.

That said, in the current problem it seems that, because maintenance of corporations both increases because of newly acquired resources and because of growing inflation, the player will never be able to fight the growing costs, because his income will hardly grow, while his costs will keep expanding. While I do understand and agree with you guys that this is wrong, I don't really see a way how the corporation system could be changed or altered and not make them too strong and too easy to sustain.

 

[eric_]

I don't think it was intended as a main use for Corporations. Solver at least didn't think so:

Yeah, I agree it's not the main use for them.

As for the maintenance thing, I'll have to reserve further comment until I play...I still have the sense that it's a matter of selective use being necessary. If that *is* the case, and if the AI invariably spams others, then that will need to be fixed, I agree. That would basically be the AI shooting itself in the foot, as anyone to whom it spreads corps will just switch to SP, and the AI will lose a huge benefit of having founded it.

 

[Random Oracle]

As for the maintenance thing, I'll have to reserve further comment until I play...I still have the sense that it's a matter of selective use being necessary. If that *is* the case, and if the AI invariably spams others, then that will need to be fixed, I agree. That would basically be the AI shooting itself in the foot, as anyone to whom it spreads corps will just switch to SP, and the AI will lose a huge benefit of having founded it.

Not to mention the choice of civics would get very boring as everyone would have to run State Property.

 

[eric_]

Well, yeah.

But, see, here's the other thing, this provides an incentive for the non-HQ holding civ to attack the HQ-holding civ. If you wanna run FM, but another civ has a corp HQ and has spread it to your cities to an extent that is crippling, well, you might just need to attack and raze that HQ city...

More dynamics...

 

[eric_]

Oh, wait, though, is it possible to raze an HQ city, and, if so, what effect does that have on the corp in other cities?

 

[Random Oracle]

Oh, wait, though, is it possible to raze an HQ city, and, if so, what effect does that have on the corp in other cities?

Interesting question, and I have no idea. I imagine the corporation would stay in other cities like religion does.

 

[homan1983]

And, I'm baffled that people think the "weapon" aspect of corps was unintentional. Why would the developers avoid that?

They wouldn't and it CAN be used as a weapon.
But to have it used as ONLY a weapon is pretty ridiculous.

It can be used as a weapon in 3 cases:

- when the target doesn't need the corporation and hence ends up paying more than value they get out of it (remember the even standard ethanol and aluminium corp, give a secondary benefit to the resource, but sometimes its just not worth it)

- when the target WOULD benefit, but his economy isn't very commerce based [trade routes and cottages] and hence he can't afford to pay for them

- when the target is a poor country (as in real life) and has very few trades going on which means the number of corporation resources he has is so few that at best he gets 1-2 extra whereas with communism each city would get 10+ extra - i.e. opportunity cost.


But to say that corporation is merely and only a weapon is illogical, redundant (UN, Apostalic Palace, Espionage) and too one dimensional.

 

[eric_]

But to have it used as ONLY a weapon is pretty ridiculous.

I agree. (10 chars)

 

[sneaky]

I agree. (10 chars)

I also agree. They can be used as a weapon and probably very effectively even, but they are primarily meant as a benefit for your own cities.
That said, the best situation would probably be to selectively put some corporations in your own cities, but also put some in the cities of your colonies and vassals. Not to destroy their economies, but to reap the HQ costs and help them at the same time. I think this could be very effective for both you and the vassal. After that you can even try and irritate some of your real enemies with your corporations, but that's icing on the cake.

 

[icemanjsg]

I agree with homan1983 Corporations are totally broken at the moment.

From what I am reading people are typing solutions to the problem with an attittude of making best of a bad situation. And not using corpaortions have the designers had them in mind they are suppose to be a help not a hindrance!

I have completed numerous games and by the last game I just stopped using them. The way I am using corporations is not how the game designed them to be used. I would set up a HQ and never put them in any of my domestic cities or AI friend cities, I only spread them to my enemies. However, I have stopped doing this now for two reasons. Firstly the AI regardless of the Leader quickly themselves realize that the costs far out way the benefits of any corparation and switch to State Property and I have to bride and/or use espionage to switch them back to free markets to hurt there economy . Secondly it just kills the AI as they loose all their science and money. By the end you just totally freeze them in a point in time as they just can't afford to research unless they keep on state property.

Also I got the Central Bank random event that slightly changed my inflation and I gained an insane amount of gold for however low it was!

 

[eric_]

Have the designers explicitly stated The Way in which we are to use Corporations?